21 ms·

I spent a year building an Android course for the elderly

208 points by kcsaba2 2y ago

astrodude 2y ago
What Google should have done long time ago
VyseofArcadia 2y ago
What I have discovered about teaching[0] is that some people just don't want to learn the fundamental interaction principles. They just don't. They have a small list of specific things they want to do, and they would rather memorize those specific workflows than something that generalizes. Of course they'll have to learn it all from scratch again when Google decides to change the gmail UI for the gazillionth time, but that's a problem for the future. I'm curious how much feedback you'll get of the form, "don't teach me all this stuff, just teach me how to look at photos of my grandkids". [0] and not just the elderly, although I feel the elderly are worse about this in general
PopAlongKid 2y ago
>Our parents and elderly relatives didn't grow up with smartphones. Neither did about half of the millennials, so why don't they need similar help? I don't think the qualifier is age, rather it is prior computer experience. I am elderly, and only started using a smartphone (as opposed to feature phone) about four years ago, but I have had my hands on computer keyboards for over 50 years, so learning to use all the basic features of a smartphone didn't require any help. Likewise, many millennials did grow up using computers. If you already understand basics on a PC like bootup, shutdown, login, system settings, installing a program, starting a program, finding a program, copy/paste, upload/download, the smartphone should not present much of a challenge. Otherwise, learning a smartphone is mostly just learning how to use a computer.
kytazo 2y ago
Hey, I've been wanting to do something similar for some time now for my domestic audience. Putting it all together is quite an effort, are you satisfied on the returns considering the time/effort you've put into it?
1oooqooq 2y ago
the course website feels like the exact type of scam i ward elderly people off.
kcsaba2 2y ago
Teaching tech to elderly people is hard—many struggle with gestures, apps, or even turning their phones on. I built a course from scratch, covering every step from unboxing to apps. Along the way, I learned about video production, Android’s quirks, and marketing struggles.
- avg_dev 2y ago
  thanks, here are a couple of links to the course: https://smartphonehowto.com/gift/ https://smartphonehowto.com/gift/ - "Save time & help your loved ones" - for people who might want to introduce this course to someone they know https://smartphonehowto.com/ https://smartphonehowto.com/ - "Stay connected with family and friends" - for people who might want to take this course
- thimkerbell 2y ago
  Another thing that's difficult, is that phones that were advertised as old-person-friendlly, physically were not. Black buttons on black background, etc. Maybe this sotuation has improved.
  - raisedbyninjas 2y ago
    Make sure the old-person in your life has hand lotion on. Touch screens are not tuned to their drier skin.
RankingMember 2y ago
I love how exhaustive your approach to documentation is here, because (like you said) it really does need to be to be truly useful. If the user doesn't know how to get to "Contacts", saying "Start by opening Contacts" does them no good and just discourages them.
- kcsaba2 2y ago
  Thank you for your kind words!
- suzzer99 2y ago
  Yes. My dad needs very explicit step-by-step instructions. Even to the point of I can't just say hit Ctrl-C. I have to tell him to hold down the Control key and then hit the C key while still holding down the Control key.
quasse 2y ago
Did you test your course on any elderly people as you were developing it? What did you learn from that, if so? Did it require changes that were surprising?
- kcsaba2 2y ago
  I wanted to:) And you know what the funny thing is, if i give the course for free, no-one watches it. I did reach out to several people in my friendship, gave them free the course just to get feedback. None of them watched it, so thats very, very surprising for me. Maybe i should go up to random strangers and PAY THEM in order to give them something that would benefit them - and maybe get some feedback:)) But on the other hand, I've got very lovely reviews on udemy, so apparently those who find it love it and thats very encouraging.
  - lucb1e 2y ago
    > Maybe i should go up to random strangers and PAY THEM in order to give them something that would benefit them It is pretty normal to compensate people for their time in my limited experience (both as subject and from what I hear about user testing). Usually it's a pretty small amount, not like a normal salary but a bit more than a cup of coffee for maybe 30-45 minutes of their time (assuming they don't have to travel to you in addition). They are helping you create a commercial product, it is not weird to do something in return, although I understand also what you're saying about how they might benefit from it themselves Perhaps you could do a small amount, say (the equivalent cost of) a good cup of coffee, plus a free copy of the course so they can use it themselves and show some others? That spreads the word in addition to them feeling compensated I'm not a marketing expert though, just going off of what I hear and experienced from other companies
    - onetokeoverthe 2y ago
      Used to give $5 starbucks cards or relevant swag (pens, cups, t-shirts) in exchange for 15-20 minutes of one to one f2f feedback.
simlan 2y ago
Awesome. I recently had similar thoughts and then I was considering all the variations in the android eco system. Lots of times when I am helping I have to just rely ony intuition because I am not familiar with the specific flavour of android used by Samsung or whatever else sonone might have. I will have a look at your material. Maybe I can localize it to my needs.
- kcsaba2 2y ago
  Thank you so much, I would really appreciate any feedback about that!
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
evanjrowley 2y ago
This is fantastic. I can think of a handful of people who I'd recommend this course for. I have a question about something I noticed in "Preview of 03.07. Finding & launching apps" - In this lesson, what you refer to as the "desktop" is something I typically refer to as "home screen" - Is "desktop" really the preferred way to describe that screen?
- kcsaba2 2y ago
  Thank you, it's an honor you think that! I don't know of any higher authority on what to call it actually. Technically that "app" (it is an android app just like any other) is called a launcher, i went with desktop, but I also like home screen, and I think I probably use these terms interchangeably in the course. (You actually can install a different launcher if you are not happy with yours.)
  - evanjrowley 2y ago
    Honestly, I think you're right about "launcher" being the technically correct term. I don't know, maybe the correct way to approach the challenges to just mention that there are multiple ways to refer to the same thing?
  - lucb1e 2y ago
    > i went with desktop, but I also like home screen, and I think I probably use these terms interchangeably This might be best to have be configurable, so that I can pick what a family member already knows Some people have previously used a computer professionally and know what a desktop is, so for them it's fine to use the word (my dad would be one of those). Others have more smartphone experience and I think I use the words home screen (my mom I think) and start screen (my grandma). It's like you mention a word and see how they react to it: do they get what concept you're referring to from the word's components? Do they repeat it back to you later, did it stick, or do they at least understand it the next time you say it? When you ask "what screen do you get when you turn the device on", what word do they use? I base my wording on things like that, so it's not just region- or family-specific but even person-specific, in my experience
ChrisArchitect 2y ago
To clarify: this is how to use the phone, the Android OS. Not develop for Android.
- kcsaba2 2y ago
  Yes, yes, yes! I even talk about how hard it is to distinguish between these two things. Even as a user who just want to learn how to use it, kind of hopeless to find something amongst the dev articles/tutorials.
pinum 2y ago
This looks like it could be very valuable for quite a lot of people- thank you for making it! Just a couple first impressions from your site... loading it on a phone, the first thing I see is this: https://imgur.com/4maP1vV https://imgur.com/4maP1vV (1) The entire contents of the site is completely covered by a cookie warning. This is honestly quite annoying even for an SWE like me, never mind your target audience. I know at least one older person who doesn't understand these cookie modals at all and refuses to touch them. They either continue using the site in the background without accepting/rejecting(!), or if that's not possible they just leave the site. I'd suggest you carefully check whether you actually need this modal at all. If the only cookies you use are technically necessary, then (based on my layman understanding of the law) you don't need to show it. If you absolutely must use tracking cookies, then maybe consider a more subtle approach that allows the user to continue reading the page without deciding. (2) "Join Now" makes it sound like I'm signing up to a subscription, rather than making a one-off payment.
- cruffle_duffle 2y ago
  People should just stop including those warnings. Unless they are a google, FB or some other juicy politically rich target for the EU to make an example of, they are a complete waste of time. Nobody is going to hassle you about it.
  - Jaxan 2y ago
    Or they just stop with all this nonsense by not having third party tracking cookies in the first place. Legitimate usage of cookies doesn’t need such a banner.
  - codazoda 2y ago
    Unfortunately, this isn’t true. There is at least one organization out there launching privacy suits to extract settlements from small players.
    - tommica 2y ago
      Wow... Do you know the orgs name?
kulshan 2y ago
I manage a Digital Literacy Program for seniors. This is a great idea. But for example, most seniors I work with are total beginners. Simply getting to signing up for an udemy course and figuring out player controls on this course are pretty big obstacles. The long running "Easy Tablet Help for Seniors" is much simpler and free. Sorry! Don't want to discourage your work though!
- Dr3xus 2y ago
  Can you share resources which you feel are the most useful for a beginner? I've been looking for course material for my mother.
  - kulshan 2y ago
    Overall, Senior Planet from AARP has some great resources. They even run support groups for victims of fraud. https://seniorplanet.org/on-demand/ https://seniorplanet.org/on-demand/ Generations is pretty good if not a little dated but all free. http://www.generationsonline.com/ http://www.generationsonline.com/ Drive your learning is great collaboration between AT&T and Digitunity. I'm uncertain if every course is free but I'm really loving their cybersecurity lessons. http://www.driveyourlearning.org/ http://www.driveyourlearning.org/ Oasis has some great videos as well. Again, I appreciate their safety lessons. https://connections.oasisnet.org/Safety/ https://connections.oasisnet.org/Safety/
ericra 2y ago
I genuinely think this is a great thing to offer and very much needed. Great work. Your ffmpeg tutorial also looks really interesting, and I'll definitely be checking that out when I have time. But please consider removing or changing that huge cookie banner on the main page. The amount of people that will simply choose to not interact with the site at all and X out immediately when seeing this might be higher than you think. That would be my first instinct.
- kcsaba2 2y ago
  Thank you so much for your feedback, someone before you already mentioned the cookie banner thing, and I was just working on it. Although can't remove but made it way smaller.
  - nprateem 2y ago
    It's for comments like the above that this is a terrible place to ask for feedback on what you've done. I don't think people realise how much of a weird bubble this site is. Take the comments above about how you like learning stuff but most people don't: That means WE'RE the weird ones, not most people! The last thing you want is people like us giving feedback. Also the F-Droid stuff... I mean come on. Your target market is clueless. They don't care about cookies banners, advanced customisation, software freedoms, etc. They just want to message their grandkids online and are probably terrified of being scammed out of their savings. They probably don't like change or learning complicated new things either. But hey, I'm not one. Go and speak to your market and see what they want, if anything. And ignore 95% of comments here. Most people aren't as paranoid as techies.
iamben 2y ago
Hey this is great - just had a look for my mum! Couple of questions (which without watching are hard to answer) - why the modules on the F-Droid App Store and Firefox? As a (young(er!)) Android user I've used neither and would be unlikely to. I can't imagine my mum would use anything other than Play and Chrome, so it feels a little 'too far' for me, confusion for the sake of it? Also a suggestion - pretty much everyone uses WhatsApp in the UK, mostly everyone I know will be in a WhatsApp group with their parents (and/or grandparents!). Definitely worth adding that as a module!
- kcsaba2 2y ago
  Thank you! Yeah, you are partly right about that (they are not there for confusion's sake). I just didn't had the stomach to leave those things unmentioned as I'm personally not fond of the monopoly either. So thought to still at least put somewhere at the end. Make some poweruser grandmas:) Whatsapp, indeed is a good idea, will add that, thanks!
  - 71bw 2y ago
    >Whatsapp, indeed is a good idea, will add that, thanks! And then, since you have one base covered for one "sphere" of the world, you also need to cover Telegram and Facebook Messenger, rofl
    - kcsaba2 2y ago
      But i have those already;)
  - iamben 2y ago
    Thanks for the reply! I completely understand, particularly regarding the monopoly, but do consider stuff that's technically 'non-standard' in an advanced module. It's hard enough to explain to my mum (at least) one concept - explaining a secondary app store, or to use a browser that none of her friends would be using isn't the quickest route to her grasping stuff (or indeed comparing experiences with her friends).
bloomingeek 2y ago
As a now retired guy who grew up loving to question almost everything, it was easy for me to get into electronics when I was able to. (I was a little late, not until my mid thirties.) I especially love reading manuals from the things I purchased. However, I noticed that a lot of people my age didn't share my interest in this area. I helped as often as they would let me, but to a man, they just weren't willing to take the time to get interested. They just wanted their stuff to work. They also had no idea of all the features their products were capable of performing. (Cellphone anyone?) I've often wondered if it was the way I was 'wired' or if I just had the urge to know these things. Well done on the project!
- kcsaba2 2y ago
  I understand that, I'm like that as well. And not many in my circles are similarly wired. I like to tinker with electronics and different systems and also as a SWE coding random stuff, but not everyone is wired like that. Long time ago when we were moving, i found an old school book of mine from 7th grade elementary: there was a kid with a wrench repairing a bicycle on the front cover. I remember thinking: thats not really a thing anymore.
- Dalewyn 2y ago
  >They just wanted their stuff to work. That's the normal attitude people have to almost everything. I'm sure you can name something you only care to see work and not know how it works; electronics is that to that other person. It's also why software have (d)evolved to remove customization, because most people don't change the defaults anyway (they don't even know what a "default" is besides the financial term, maybe).
hifix 2y ago
Great work! Like a lot of millenials, I'm on call for any issues my parents have with their Android devices but I imagine there are a lot of elderly people out there without that support.
- kcsaba2 2y ago
  Thank you!
qilo 2y ago
Is there any course about Android "administration"? I mean there are plenty of content on Linux/Windows administration (not programming): partitions, file systems, bootloaders, boot sequence, kernels, init(ialization), processes, shells, users, configuration, application installation and execution, logging, security, etc. How all of the components fit together, what interacts with what, and so on. When I first got my phone was looking for an Android course which would explain all the above concepts (and more, like what is launcher, how notifications work, what other APIs there are, location, camera, microphone, etc.). But didn't find anything, only found courses/books about application development in Java/Kotlin. I have no interest in Android programming, just want to know how it works.
- kcsaba2 2y ago
  Hi! I think your best bet would be the developer.android.com documentation. Although there are code references, most of them explain the concepts in the beginning or inbetween. Just ignore the code parts. Here is an example for the notifications you mentioned: https://developer.android.com/develop/ui/views/notifications https://developer.android.com/develop/ui/views/notifications But you can find info on the other topics in here as well.
zoomTo125 2y ago
The most common problem I encounter is that signing into their email accounts. Google somehow decided to send prompt to the phone even though nothing has changed (same password, IP, computer, browser with cookies). And, my parents have no idea how to find the relevant notification and find the prompt. And, I even take some time because there're like a thousand notifications on their phones.
- onetokeoverthe 2y ago
  For your parents. Several nongoogle email platforms NEVER bother opt-outers with captchas, 2fa, or other NONsense.
- xelamonster 2y ago
  I tried to use the Find My Phone feature with my Samsung account a couple days ago. Log into Samsung with Google, on my friend's device as I've lost my phone, and Google says "we've sent a prompt to your phone to log in"... the phone that I'm trying to find. No alternative options, I just got frustrated and gave up and luckily found it on my own. Still not over how incredibly stupid that was.
- kcsaba2 2y ago
  As an alternative you could set up 2FA on their google accounts, and then they can have a 2FA app on their phone (not just google-authenticator, any app you trust can be good). Then they would have a fixed place where they can find the 2FA code and not to mess around with the notifications. It's more complicated but more robust as well.
teaearlgraycold 2y ago
I have to wonder if the Anglo-sphere elderly will struggle with your accent. It’s not too strong and I can understand, but for those that may be slightly hard if hearing and have less neuroplasticity maybe it would be an extra hurdle to using the guide.
- ranon 2y ago
  Agreed. If I were to get my mom to try this course, the first thing she will comment on is that she can't understand the accent. Ironically her own accent is much stronger. She just isn't very tolerant when it comes to focusing on something.
  - kcsaba2 2y ago
    Haha, yeah guys you are right, sadly not much I can do about it, esp. after the fact:) There are a ton of free previews so one can figure out if its for them or not. I even mention at the end of the intro that if you can put up with my accent, you'll be good to go:)
Perenti 2y ago
I'm quite ignorant about my phone. I struggle to send someone a photo with it. Every time I have to interact with android for anything trickier than making a phone call or sending a text I just end up angry and frustrated. I don't use apps on my phone except for phone calls and texts, mostly because I have no clues whatsoever. I'm probably in your target audience, but: 1) Too expensive for something I'm not convinced will improve my life (it seems to me that people who know how to use smartphones spend 90%+ of their free time looking at it, rather than interacting with real live people), which leads to 2) How will learning this make my life better?
qwertox 2y ago
I just watched the power phone on / off preview, and it has the issues which I assumed it would have. Long-press to turn on a powered-off phone is not a standard. Even I don't know how to turn these devices on, so I do a combination of multiple short presses, multiple long presses until it works. Powering the phone off via the button won't work on modern phones, since the hardware power button has become the tool to invoke an assistant. You need to swipe down the notifications twice and use the software power button from there. In this room I have 6 Android devices from different manufacturers. Then there are so many OS differences between all the vendors, that it becomes almost impossible to teach someone who doesn't know how Android generally works if it isn't on their own device. But I congratulate him for doing these videos and hope that the elderly manage to learn from the course.
- piltdownman 2y ago
  // Powering the phone off via the button won't work on modern phones, since the hardware power button has become the tool to invoke an assistant. ALL versions of Android OS allows you to set the power button back to power on long-press - you just have to go back into settings to change it; although the Pixel range had a recent update change to Gemini as default. Similar to the double-tap for quick camera.
  - qwertox 2y ago
    I prefer it this way, long press = assistant, double press = camera. And I believe that the elderly would also prefer this, if they do actively use an assistant to ask questions. I have hot-word detection turned off, so I think the button is a good compromise.
- kelvinjps10 2y ago
  If you press it long enough, it will shutdown, even if you didn't touch anything in the assistant.
  - qwertox 2y ago
    I just held it for around 25 seconds on a Pixel 8 and it did nothing (except for starting the assistant). I think if you hold it even longer then it does some kind of reset, which isn't a clean shutdown. I don't mind the repurposing of the power button. I prefer it being used for something else, since I don't power it off very often. The only thing which bothers me a bit in the repurposed state is that the power-off menu includes an emergency button, which is now hidden behind a couple of levels of swiping and clicking. And accessing it from the lock screen again varies among vendors.
71bw 2y ago
100% down to help you translate the thing into Polish if you're interested. balu [symbol] xdapierdolnik [period] pl
- kcsaba2 2y ago
  Thank you I really appreciate! Please see my comment below about translations though!
Kwpolska 2y ago
You talk about the chicken-and-egg problem when using a phone, but doesn't your course itself present one? To do the course, you need to have fairly good computer skills, and that assumes someone handles the purchase for you. How many seniors are actually in that position, and how many are completely lost when it comes to any digital devices?
- szszrk 2y ago
  I'm not sure how would you like author to address that. If a user is not able to navigate any computer, he won't even reach the course or any advertisement. He needs at least some help to start out. Also, to be fair, the site has a clear video that shows step-by-step process of ... purchasing the course. I think our senior population changes and there are plenty of them that had contact with desktop and touchscreen devices, but get easily confused and can't keep up with updates. I know many such people and would love something like that, but translated.
  - Kwpolska 2y ago
    A print book would be a fine way to address the problem. While this book won’t be able to show video, it could still do a lot with text and screenshots. And then, videos could be moved into the companion app.
  - kcsaba2 2y ago
    Yes, exactly, thank you.
dmje 2y ago
Looks like a great course. I’m sorry to say my experience has been “Android = pain” as far as the oldies are concerned. Had years supporting MiL and her endless devices. Then two years ago we got her an iPad instead. Support requirement has dropped to pretty much nil.
- 1oooqooq 2y ago
  it's like saying "we didn't like the radio on your Hyundai's so we got all bmws" most of the world cannot even afford S or A models from Samsung.
  - dmje 2y ago
    Not really. It's not like iPads are 10x the price of a cheap Android device. They're like 2x. Factor in time and the maths makes even more sense.
    - dragonwriter 2y ago
      > It’s not like iPads are 10x the price of a cheap Android device. They’re like 2x. I’m seeing about 3-4:1 comparing reconditioned iPads to cheap-but-not-reconditioned new Android tablets, 10:1 is closer than 2:1 for new-to-new.
      - 1oooqooq 2y ago
        outside of usa and Europe, apple tax is close to 6-10:1 instead of 3-4:1
jacooper 2y ago
This is great! Are there any plans to translate it into other languages? With Ai it should be doable.
- meowzor 2y ago
  Yeah, this is something I'd be interested in if available in other languages!
  - kcsaba2 2y ago
    Yeah, thank you for your interest! I've got some messages about that as well. But first i'd like to see enouh traffic on the course in the most popular language available and then I'll consider putting more effort into it.

208 points by kcsaba2 2y ago

What Google should have done long time ago

What I have discovered about teaching[0] is that some people just don't want to learn the fundamental interaction principles. They just don't. They have a small list of specific things they want to do, and they would rather memorize those specific workflows than something that generalizes. Of course they'll have to learn it all from scratch again when Google decides to change the gmail UI for the gazillionth time, but that's a problem for the future. I'm curious how much feedback you'll get of the form, "don't teach me all this stuff, just teach me how to look at photos of my grandkids". [0] and not just the elderly, although I feel the elderly are worse about this in general

PopAlongKid 2y ago

>Our parents and elderly relatives didn't grow up with smartphones. Neither did about half of the millennials, so why don't they need similar help? I don't think the qualifier is age, rather it is prior computer experience. I am elderly, and only started using a smartphone (as opposed to feature phone) about four years ago, but I have had my hands on computer keyboards for over 50 years, so learning to use all the basic features of a smartphone didn't require any help. Likewise, many millennials did grow up using computers. If you already understand basics on a PC like bootup, shutdown, login, system settings, installing a program, starting a program, finding a program, copy/paste, upload/download, the smartphone should not present much of a challenge. Otherwise, learning a smartphone is mostly just learning how to use a computer.

kytazo 2y ago

Hey, I've been wanting to do something similar for some time now for my domestic audience. Putting it all together is quite an effort, are you satisfied on the returns considering the time/effort you've put into it?

1oooqooq 2y ago

the course website feels like the exact type of scam i ward elderly people off.

kcsaba2 2y ago

Teaching tech to elderly people is hard—many struggle with gestures, apps, or even turning their phones on. I built a course from scratch, covering every step from unboxing to apps. Along the way, I learned about video production, Android’s quirks, and marketing struggles.

avg_dev 2y ago
thanks, here are a couple of links to the course: https://smartphonehowto.com/gift/ https://smartphonehowto.com/gift/ - "Save time & help your loved ones" - for people who might want to introduce this course to someone they know https://smartphonehowto.com/ https://smartphonehowto.com/ - "Stay connected with family and friends" - for people who might want to take this course
thimkerbell 2y ago
Another thing that's difficult, is that phones that were advertised as old-person-friendlly, physically were not. Black buttons on black background, etc. Maybe this sotuation has improved.
- raisedbyninjas 2y ago
  Make sure the old-person in your life has hand lotion on. Touch screens are not tuned to their drier skin.

RankingMember 2y ago

I love how exhaustive your approach to documentation is here, because (like you said) it really does need to be to be truly useful. If the user doesn't know how to get to "Contacts", saying "Start by opening Contacts" does them no good and just discourages them.

kcsaba2 2y ago
Thank you for your kind words!
suzzer99 2y ago
Yes. My dad needs very explicit step-by-step instructions. Even to the point of I can't just say hit Ctrl-C. I have to tell him to hold down the Control key and then hit the C key while still holding down the Control key.

quasse 2y ago

Did you test your course on any elderly people as you were developing it? What did you learn from that, if so? Did it require changes that were surprising?

kcsaba2 2y ago
I wanted to:) And you know what the funny thing is, if i give the course for free, no-one watches it. I did reach out to several people in my friendship, gave them free the course just to get feedback. None of them watched it, so thats very, very surprising for me. Maybe i should go up to random strangers and PAY THEM in order to give them something that would benefit them - and maybe get some feedback:)) But on the other hand, I've got very lovely reviews on udemy, so apparently those who find it love it and thats very encouraging.
- lucb1e 2y ago
  > Maybe i should go up to random strangers and PAY THEM in order to give them something that would benefit them It is pretty normal to compensate people for their time in my limited experience (both as subject and from what I hear about user testing). Usually it's a pretty small amount, not like a normal salary but a bit more than a cup of coffee for maybe 30-45 minutes of their time (assuming they don't have to travel to you in addition). They are helping you create a commercial product, it is not weird to do something in return, although I understand also what you're saying about how they might benefit from it themselves Perhaps you could do a small amount, say (the equivalent cost of) a good cup of coffee, plus a free copy of the course so they can use it themselves and show some others? That spreads the word in addition to them feeling compensated I'm not a marketing expert though, just going off of what I hear and experienced from other companies
  - onetokeoverthe 2y ago
    Used to give $5 starbucks cards or relevant swag (pens, cups, t-shirts) in exchange for 15-20 minutes of one to one f2f feedback.

simlan 2y ago

Awesome. I recently had similar thoughts and then I was considering all the variations in the android eco system. Lots of times when I am helping I have to just rely ony intuition because I am not familiar with the specific flavour of android used by Samsung or whatever else sonone might have. I will have a look at your material. Maybe I can localize it to my needs.

kcsaba2 2y ago
Thank you so much, I would really appreciate any feedback about that!

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

evanjrowley 2y ago

This is fantastic. I can think of a handful of people who I'd recommend this course for. I have a question about something I noticed in "Preview of 03.07. Finding & launching apps" - In this lesson, what you refer to as the "desktop" is something I typically refer to as "home screen" - Is "desktop" really the preferred way to describe that screen?

kcsaba2 2y ago
Thank you, it's an honor you think that! I don't know of any higher authority on what to call it actually. Technically that "app" (it is an android app just like any other) is called a launcher, i went with desktop, but I also like home screen, and I think I probably use these terms interchangeably in the course. (You actually can install a different launcher if you are not happy with yours.)
- evanjrowley 2y ago
  Honestly, I think you're right about "launcher" being the technically correct term. I don't know, maybe the correct way to approach the challenges to just mention that there are multiple ways to refer to the same thing?
- lucb1e 2y ago
  > i went with desktop, but I also like home screen, and I think I probably use these terms interchangeably This might be best to have be configurable, so that I can pick what a family member already knows Some people have previously used a computer professionally and know what a desktop is, so for them it's fine to use the word (my dad would be one of those). Others have more smartphone experience and I think I use the words home screen (my mom I think) and start screen (my grandma). It's like you mention a word and see how they react to it: do they get what concept you're referring to from the word's components? Do they repeat it back to you later, did it stick, or do they at least understand it the next time you say it? When you ask "what screen do you get when you turn the device on", what word do they use? I base my wording on things like that, so it's not just region- or family-specific but even person-specific, in my experience

ChrisArchitect 2y ago

To clarify: this is how to use the phone, the Android OS. Not develop for Android.

kcsaba2 2y ago
Yes, yes, yes! I even talk about how hard it is to distinguish between these two things. Even as a user who just want to learn how to use it, kind of hopeless to find something amongst the dev articles/tutorials.

pinum 2y ago

This looks like it could be very valuable for quite a lot of people- thank you for making it! Just a couple first impressions from your site... loading it on a phone, the first thing I see is this: https://imgur.com/4maP1vV https://imgur.com/4maP1vV (1) The entire contents of the site is completely covered by a cookie warning. This is honestly quite annoying even for an SWE like me, never mind your target audience. I know at least one older person who doesn't understand these cookie modals at all and refuses to touch them. They either continue using the site in the background without accepting/rejecting(!), or if that's not possible they just leave the site. I'd suggest you carefully check whether you actually need this modal at all. If the only cookies you use are technically necessary, then (based on my layman understanding of the law) you don't need to show it. If you absolutely must use tracking cookies, then maybe consider a more subtle approach that allows the user to continue reading the page without deciding. (2) "Join Now" makes it sound like I'm signing up to a subscription, rather than making a one-off payment.

cruffle_duffle 2y ago
People should just stop including those warnings. Unless they are a google, FB or some other juicy politically rich target for the EU to make an example of, they are a complete waste of time. Nobody is going to hassle you about it.
- Jaxan 2y ago
  Or they just stop with all this nonsense by not having third party tracking cookies in the first place. Legitimate usage of cookies doesn’t need such a banner.
- codazoda 2y ago
  Unfortunately, this isn’t true. There is at least one organization out there launching privacy suits to extract settlements from small players.
  - tommica 2y ago
    Wow... Do you know the orgs name?

kulshan 2y ago

I manage a Digital Literacy Program for seniors. This is a great idea. But for example, most seniors I work with are total beginners. Simply getting to signing up for an udemy course and figuring out player controls on this course are pretty big obstacles. The long running "Easy Tablet Help for Seniors" is much simpler and free. Sorry! Don't want to discourage your work though!

Dr3xus 2y ago
Can you share resources which you feel are the most useful for a beginner? I've been looking for course material for my mother.
- kulshan 2y ago
  Overall, Senior Planet from AARP has some great resources. They even run support groups for victims of fraud. https://seniorplanet.org/on-demand/ https://seniorplanet.org/on-demand/ Generations is pretty good if not a little dated but all free. http://www.generationsonline.com/ http://www.generationsonline.com/ Drive your learning is great collaboration between AT&T and Digitunity. I'm uncertain if every course is free but I'm really loving their cybersecurity lessons. http://www.driveyourlearning.org/ http://www.driveyourlearning.org/ Oasis has some great videos as well. Again, I appreciate their safety lessons. https://connections.oasisnet.org/Safety/ https://connections.oasisnet.org/Safety/

ericra 2y ago

I genuinely think this is a great thing to offer and very much needed. Great work. Your ffmpeg tutorial also looks really interesting, and I'll definitely be checking that out when I have time. But please consider removing or changing that huge cookie banner on the main page. The amount of people that will simply choose to not interact with the site at all and X out immediately when seeing this might be higher than you think. That would be my first instinct.

kcsaba2 2y ago
Thank you so much for your feedback, someone before you already mentioned the cookie banner thing, and I was just working on it. Although can't remove but made it way smaller.
- nprateem 2y ago
  It's for comments like the above that this is a terrible place to ask for feedback on what you've done. I don't think people realise how much of a weird bubble this site is. Take the comments above about how you like learning stuff but most people don't: That means WE'RE the weird ones, not most people! The last thing you want is people like us giving feedback. Also the F-Droid stuff... I mean come on. Your target market is clueless. They don't care about cookies banners, advanced customisation, software freedoms, etc. They just want to message their grandkids online and are probably terrified of being scammed out of their savings. They probably don't like change or learning complicated new things either. But hey, I'm not one. Go and speak to your market and see what they want, if anything. And ignore 95% of comments here. Most people aren't as paranoid as techies.

iamben 2y ago

Hey this is great - just had a look for my mum! Couple of questions (which without watching are hard to answer) - why the modules on the F-Droid App Store and Firefox? As a (young(er!)) Android user I've used neither and would be unlikely to. I can't imagine my mum would use anything other than Play and Chrome, so it feels a little 'too far' for me, confusion for the sake of it? Also a suggestion - pretty much everyone uses WhatsApp in the UK, mostly everyone I know will be in a WhatsApp group with their parents (and/or grandparents!). Definitely worth adding that as a module!

kcsaba2 2y ago
Thank you! Yeah, you are partly right about that (they are not there for confusion's sake). I just didn't had the stomach to leave those things unmentioned as I'm personally not fond of the monopoly either. So thought to still at least put somewhere at the end. Make some poweruser grandmas:) Whatsapp, indeed is a good idea, will add that, thanks!
- 71bw 2y ago
  >Whatsapp, indeed is a good idea, will add that, thanks! And then, since you have one base covered for one "sphere" of the world, you also need to cover Telegram and Facebook Messenger, rofl
  - kcsaba2 2y ago
    But i have those already;)
- iamben 2y ago
  Thanks for the reply! I completely understand, particularly regarding the monopoly, but do consider stuff that's technically 'non-standard' in an advanced module. It's hard enough to explain to my mum (at least) one concept - explaining a secondary app store, or to use a browser that none of her friends would be using isn't the quickest route to her grasping stuff (or indeed comparing experiences with her friends).

bloomingeek 2y ago

As a now retired guy who grew up loving to question almost everything, it was easy for me to get into electronics when I was able to. (I was a little late, not until my mid thirties.) I especially love reading manuals from the things I purchased. However, I noticed that a lot of people my age didn't share my interest in this area. I helped as often as they would let me, but to a man, they just weren't willing to take the time to get interested. They just wanted their stuff to work. They also had no idea of all the features their products were capable of performing. (Cellphone anyone?) I've often wondered if it was the way I was 'wired' or if I just had the urge to know these things. Well done on the project!

kcsaba2 2y ago
I understand that, I'm like that as well. And not many in my circles are similarly wired. I like to tinker with electronics and different systems and also as a SWE coding random stuff, but not everyone is wired like that. Long time ago when we were moving, i found an old school book of mine from 7th grade elementary: there was a kid with a wrench repairing a bicycle on the front cover. I remember thinking: thats not really a thing anymore.
Dalewyn 2y ago
>They just wanted their stuff to work. That's the normal attitude people have to almost everything. I'm sure you can name something you only care to see work and not know how it works; electronics is that to that other person. It's also why software have (d)evolved to remove customization, because most people don't change the defaults anyway (they don't even know what a "default" is besides the financial term, maybe).

hifix 2y ago

Great work! Like a lot of millenials, I'm on call for any issues my parents have with their Android devices but I imagine there are a lot of elderly people out there without that support.

kcsaba2 2y ago
Thank you!

qilo 2y ago

Is there any course about Android "administration"? I mean there are plenty of content on Linux/Windows administration (not programming): partitions, file systems, bootloaders, boot sequence, kernels, init(ialization), processes, shells, users, configuration, application installation and execution, logging, security, etc. How all of the components fit together, what interacts with what, and so on. When I first got my phone was looking for an Android course which would explain all the above concepts (and more, like what is launcher, how notifications work, what other APIs there are, location, camera, microphone, etc.). But didn't find anything, only found courses/books about application development in Java/Kotlin. I have no interest in Android programming, just want to know how it works.

kcsaba2 2y ago
Hi! I think your best bet would be the developer.android.com documentation. Although there are code references, most of them explain the concepts in the beginning or inbetween. Just ignore the code parts. Here is an example for the notifications you mentioned: https://developer.android.com/develop/ui/views/notifications https://developer.android.com/develop/ui/views/notifications But you can find info on the other topics in here as well.

zoomTo125 2y ago

The most common problem I encounter is that signing into their email accounts. Google somehow decided to send prompt to the phone even though nothing has changed (same password, IP, computer, browser with cookies). And, my parents have no idea how to find the relevant notification and find the prompt. And, I even take some time because there're like a thousand notifications on their phones.

onetokeoverthe 2y ago
For your parents. Several nongoogle email platforms NEVER bother opt-outers with captchas, 2fa, or other NONsense.
xelamonster 2y ago
I tried to use the Find My Phone feature with my Samsung account a couple days ago. Log into Samsung with Google, on my friend's device as I've lost my phone, and Google says "we've sent a prompt to your phone to log in"... the phone that I'm trying to find. No alternative options, I just got frustrated and gave up and luckily found it on my own. Still not over how incredibly stupid that was.
kcsaba2 2y ago
As an alternative you could set up 2FA on their google accounts, and then they can have a 2FA app on their phone (not just google-authenticator, any app you trust can be good). Then they would have a fixed place where they can find the 2FA code and not to mess around with the notifications. It's more complicated but more robust as well.

teaearlgraycold 2y ago

I have to wonder if the Anglo-sphere elderly will struggle with your accent. It’s not too strong and I can understand, but for those that may be slightly hard if hearing and have less neuroplasticity maybe it would be an extra hurdle to using the guide.

ranon 2y ago
Agreed. If I were to get my mom to try this course, the first thing she will comment on is that she can't understand the accent. Ironically her own accent is much stronger. She just isn't very tolerant when it comes to focusing on something.
- kcsaba2 2y ago
  Haha, yeah guys you are right, sadly not much I can do about it, esp. after the fact:) There are a ton of free previews so one can figure out if its for them or not. I even mention at the end of the intro that if you can put up with my accent, you'll be good to go:)

Perenti 2y ago

I'm quite ignorant about my phone. I struggle to send someone a photo with it. Every time I have to interact with android for anything trickier than making a phone call or sending a text I just end up angry and frustrated. I don't use apps on my phone except for phone calls and texts, mostly because I have no clues whatsoever. I'm probably in your target audience, but: 1) Too expensive for something I'm not convinced will improve my life (it seems to me that people who know how to use smartphones spend 90%+ of their free time looking at it, rather than interacting with real live people), which leads to 2) How will learning this make my life better?

qwertox 2y ago

I just watched the power phone on / off preview, and it has the issues which I assumed it would have. Long-press to turn on a powered-off phone is not a standard. Even I don't know how to turn these devices on, so I do a combination of multiple short presses, multiple long presses until it works. Powering the phone off via the button won't work on modern phones, since the hardware power button has become the tool to invoke an assistant. You need to swipe down the notifications twice and use the software power button from there. In this room I have 6 Android devices from different manufacturers. Then there are so many OS differences between all the vendors, that it becomes almost impossible to teach someone who doesn't know how Android generally works if it isn't on their own device. But I congratulate him for doing these videos and hope that the elderly manage to learn from the course.

piltdownman 2y ago
// Powering the phone off via the button won't work on modern phones, since the hardware power button has become the tool to invoke an assistant. ALL versions of Android OS allows you to set the power button back to power on long-press - you just have to go back into settings to change it; although the Pixel range had a recent update change to Gemini as default. Similar to the double-tap for quick camera.
- qwertox 2y ago
  I prefer it this way, long press = assistant, double press = camera. And I believe that the elderly would also prefer this, if they do actively use an assistant to ask questions. I have hot-word detection turned off, so I think the button is a good compromise.
kelvinjps10 2y ago
If you press it long enough, it will shutdown, even if you didn't touch anything in the assistant.
- qwertox 2y ago
  I just held it for around 25 seconds on a Pixel 8 and it did nothing (except for starting the assistant). I think if you hold it even longer then it does some kind of reset, which isn't a clean shutdown. I don't mind the repurposing of the power button. I prefer it being used for something else, since I don't power it off very often. The only thing which bothers me a bit in the repurposed state is that the power-off menu includes an emergency button, which is now hidden behind a couple of levels of swiping and clicking. And accessing it from the lock screen again varies among vendors.

71bw 2y ago

100% down to help you translate the thing into Polish if you're interested. balu [symbol] xdapierdolnik [period] pl

kcsaba2 2y ago
Thank you I really appreciate! Please see my comment below about translations though!

Kwpolska 2y ago

You talk about the chicken-and-egg problem when using a phone, but doesn't your course itself present one? To do the course, you need to have fairly good computer skills, and that assumes someone handles the purchase for you. How many seniors are actually in that position, and how many are completely lost when it comes to any digital devices?

szszrk 2y ago
I'm not sure how would you like author to address that. If a user is not able to navigate any computer, he won't even reach the course or any advertisement. He needs at least some help to start out. Also, to be fair, the site has a clear video that shows step-by-step process of ... purchasing the course. I think our senior population changes and there are plenty of them that had contact with desktop and touchscreen devices, but get easily confused and can't keep up with updates. I know many such people and would love something like that, but translated.
- Kwpolska 2y ago
  A print book would be a fine way to address the problem. While this book won’t be able to show video, it could still do a lot with text and screenshots. And then, videos could be moved into the companion app.
- kcsaba2 2y ago
  Yes, exactly, thank you.

dmje 2y ago

Looks like a great course. I’m sorry to say my experience has been “Android = pain” as far as the oldies are concerned. Had years supporting MiL and her endless devices. Then two years ago we got her an iPad instead. Support requirement has dropped to pretty much nil.

1oooqooq 2y ago
it's like saying "we didn't like the radio on your Hyundai's so we got all bmws" most of the world cannot even afford S or A models from Samsung.
- dmje 2y ago
  Not really. It's not like iPads are 10x the price of a cheap Android device. They're like 2x. Factor in time and the maths makes even more sense.
  - dragonwriter 2y ago
    > It’s not like iPads are 10x the price of a cheap Android device. They’re like 2x. I’m seeing about 3-4:1 comparing reconditioned iPads to cheap-but-not-reconditioned new Android tablets, 10:1 is closer than 2:1 for new-to-new.
    - 1oooqooq 2y ago
      outside of usa and Europe, apple tax is close to 6-10:1 instead of 3-4:1

jacooper 2y ago

This is great! Are there any plans to translate it into other languages? With Ai it should be doable.

meowzor 2y ago
Yeah, this is something I'd be interested in if available in other languages!
- kcsaba2 2y ago
  Yeah, thank you for your interest! I've got some messages about that as well. But first i'd like to see enouh traffic on the course in the most popular language available and then I'll consider putting more effort into it.