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> What is interesting in the debate to me, is that I see a lot of IT work as blue collar work. Society has loads of edge cases like this. I broke my arm a few

> What is interesting in the debate to me, is that I see a lot of IT work as blue collar work. Society has loads of edge cases like this. I broke my arm a few years back, went to hospital, and a surgeon put some titanium plates and screws in. The orthopaedic surgeon spends a lot of the day standing, they repeat similar work every day with minor variations, they can't work remotely, they're exposed to hazardous chemicals, they have face-to-face interactions with customers, they earn money by working rather than from investments or inheritance, they're union members, they get paid overtime, they wear blue employer-issued workwear, many do shift work, and they literally put in screws for a living. And yet nobody would say surgeons are blue collar workers. Maybe because of the $500k salaries, or the air-conditioned hospitals they work in, or because their status is equivalent to doctors who are pretty much the definition of upper-middle-class tie-wearing knowledge workers.

sarchertech 2y ago
> they're union members, they get paid overtime Very few surgeons are union members. They frequently work for outside groups and are paid per procedure. The ones that do work for the hospital on salary don’t get overtime. >status is equivalent to doctors They are doctors. Both in title and in function. Most surgeons only operate a couple days a week. The rest of their time they see patients in clinic, and an outside observer couldn’t tell the difference between their work environment and a primary care physician’s. You are onto something though. My wife is an ER doctor and her job is very similar to blue collar service jobs (if you consider service jobs blue collar). She doesn’t make her own schedule. She works insane shifts (one day she could work 7a-4p, the next 10p-7a). She interacts with patients directly all day. The pay is a lot better, but the hours are worse than any retail job I’ve ever heard of, and you can’t call in sick. Her coworker was sick and could barely get out of bed, but she came in early to have a nurse give her an IV so she could power through her shift—that kind of thing is very common. Plus you have the ultimate responsibility for every patient that comes through the door. You have to make sure you don’t miss anything serious every time—while at the same time, making sure that you don’t spend too much time with each patient. And the ER you’re working in is full because the floor is too full to admit new patients but the ER can’t just shut the door, so patients are boarding in the halls. Oh and if you mess up, you can literally lose your house when a jury awards someone more than your malpractice insurance will cover.
- pc86 2y ago
  They're going to be members of the American Medical Association and likely at least one of the American Academy of Orthopedic Surgeons, the American Board of Orthopedic Surgeons, and/or the American Council for Graduate Medical Education. The difference between these organizations and unions pretty much starts and ends with "negotiate collectively with your employer directly" because they all (especially the AMA and ACGME) act to keep salaries and prestige high. They're not a union member the same way a teacher, police officer, or steam fitter is but they're not as far removed as your typical programmer, for example.
  - worik 2y ago
    The American Medical Association, American Academy of Orthopedic Surgeons, the American Board of Orthopedic Surgeons, and the American Council for Graduate Medical Education are all unions Powerful unions
    - sarchertech 2y ago
      None of those are unions. They are lobbying organizations and certification bodies. The vast majority of doctors aren’t even members of the AMA.
  - sarchertech 2y ago
    Less than 20% of practicing physicians are members of the AMA. As for medical specialty boards, getting board certified is much more like an engineer passing the PE exam than joining a union. Also collective bargaining with your employer is the primary benefit of joining a union, and the primary purpose of joining a union. Without that function a union would be unrecognizable to the average union member.
- greentxt 2y ago
  All doctors,like all lawyers, are in a union in the sense that they cannot operate without approval from their peers. It's collusion by labor, but with patient outcomes being the supposed concern rather than pay (though obviously it is also precisely why doctors and lawyers get paid so much).

sarchertech 2y ago

> they're union members, they get paid overtime Very few surgeons are union members. They frequently work for outside groups and are paid per procedure. The ones that do work for the hospital on salary don’t get overtime. >status is equivalent to doctors They are doctors. Both in title and in function. Most surgeons only operate a couple days a week. The rest of their time they see patients in clinic, and an outside observer couldn’t tell the difference between their work environment and a primary care physician’s. You are onto something though. My wife is an ER doctor and her job is very similar to blue collar service jobs (if you consider service jobs blue collar). She doesn’t make her own schedule. She works insane shifts (one day she could work 7a-4p, the next 10p-7a). She interacts with patients directly all day. The pay is a lot better, but the hours are worse than any retail job I’ve ever heard of, and you can’t call in sick. Her coworker was sick and could barely get out of bed, but she came in early to have a nurse give her an IV so she could power through her shift—that kind of thing is very common. Plus you have the ultimate responsibility for every patient that comes through the door. You have to make sure you don’t miss anything serious every time—while at the same time, making sure that you don’t spend too much time with each patient. And the ER you’re working in is full because the floor is too full to admit new patients but the ER can’t just shut the door, so patients are boarding in the halls. Oh and if you mess up, you can literally lose your house when a jury awards someone more than your malpractice insurance will cover.

pc86 2y ago
They're going to be members of the American Medical Association and likely at least one of the American Academy of Orthopedic Surgeons, the American Board of Orthopedic Surgeons, and/or the American Council for Graduate Medical Education. The difference between these organizations and unions pretty much starts and ends with "negotiate collectively with your employer directly" because they all (especially the AMA and ACGME) act to keep salaries and prestige high. They're not a union member the same way a teacher, police officer, or steam fitter is but they're not as far removed as your typical programmer, for example.
- worik 2y ago
  The American Medical Association, American Academy of Orthopedic Surgeons, the American Board of Orthopedic Surgeons, and the American Council for Graduate Medical Education are all unions Powerful unions
  - sarchertech 2y ago
    None of those are unions. They are lobbying organizations and certification bodies. The vast majority of doctors aren’t even members of the AMA.
- sarchertech 2y ago
  Less than 20% of practicing physicians are members of the AMA. As for medical specialty boards, getting board certified is much more like an engineer passing the PE exam than joining a union. Also collective bargaining with your employer is the primary benefit of joining a union, and the primary purpose of joining a union. Without that function a union would be unrecognizable to the average union member.
greentxt 2y ago
All doctors,like all lawyers, are in a union in the sense that they cannot operate without approval from their peers. It's collusion by labor, but with patient outcomes being the supposed concern rather than pay (though obviously it is also precisely why doctors and lawyers get paid so much).