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I don’t think people saying these things are inherently wrong. “Not working” is obviously wrong because using brain is work, and it’s exhausting work in many ca

by devjab 2y ago

I don’t think people saying these things are inherently wrong. “Not working” is obviously wrong because using brain is work, and it’s exhausting work in many cases. The flip-side, and this is probably what is meant, is that you don’t break your body doing it. Similarly it’s obviously silly to think a higher education is necessary for a good working life. A lot of independent contractors and trades people have some really cool jobs that most office workers would be jealous of. Again what is meant is the perception that not having a higher education leads to a poorer life, which it can, but doesn’t have to. I think that especially calling white collars out as not doing real work is often lovingly. It can be said by assholes, but the language around physical labour is often “tough love”. I’m not sure calling blue collar workers unfulfilled is very often lovingly though, so I think most people who do that are assholes. What is interesting in the debate to me, is that I see a lot of IT work as blue collar work. Not all of it, but a lot of what we do is basically trade-skill related similar to how plumbing is. It’s just no physical. Over all though, I think it’s best to spend very little time on people who actually mean it hatefully when they call you X. Who cares what assholes think?

michaelt 2y ago
> What is interesting in the debate to me, is that I see a lot of IT work as blue collar work. Society has loads of edge cases like this. I broke my arm a few years back, went to hospital, and a surgeon put some titanium plates and screws in. The orthopaedic surgeon spends a lot of the day standing, they repeat similar work every day with minor variations, they can't work remotely, they're exposed to hazardous chemicals, they have face-to-face interactions with customers, they earn money by working rather than from investments or inheritance, they're union members, they get paid overtime, they wear blue employer-issued workwear, many do shift work, and they literally put in screws for a living. And yet nobody would say surgeons are blue collar workers. Maybe because of the $500k salaries, or the air-conditioned hospitals they work in, or because their status is equivalent to doctors who are pretty much the definition of upper-middle-class tie-wearing knowledge workers.
- sarchertech 2y ago
  > they're union members, they get paid overtime Very few surgeons are union members. They frequently work for outside groups and are paid per procedure. The ones that do work for the hospital on salary don’t get overtime. >status is equivalent to doctors They are doctors. Both in title and in function. Most surgeons only operate a couple days a week. The rest of their time they see patients in clinic, and an outside observer couldn’t tell the difference between their work environment and a primary care physician’s. You are onto something though. My wife is an ER doctor and her job is very similar to blue collar service jobs (if you consider service jobs blue collar). She doesn’t make her own schedule. She works insane shifts (one day she could work 7a-4p, the next 10p-7a). She interacts with patients directly all day. The pay is a lot better, but the hours are worse than any retail job I’ve ever heard of, and you can’t call in sick. Her coworker was sick and could barely get out of bed, but she came in early to have a nurse give her an IV so she could power through her shift—that kind of thing is very common. Plus you have the ultimate responsibility for every patient that comes through the door. You have to make sure you don’t miss anything serious every time—while at the same time, making sure that you don’t spend too much time with each patient. And the ER you’re working in is full because the floor is too full to admit new patients but the ER can’t just shut the door, so patients are boarding in the halls. Oh and if you mess up, you can literally lose your house when a jury awards someone more than your malpractice insurance will cover.
  - pc86 2y ago
    They're going to be members of the American Medical Association and likely at least one of the American Academy of Orthopedic Surgeons, the American Board of Orthopedic Surgeons, and/or the American Council for Graduate Medical Education. The difference between these organizations and unions pretty much starts and ends with "negotiate collectively with your employer directly" because they all (especially the AMA and ACGME) act to keep salaries and prestige high. They're not a union member the same way a teacher, police officer, or steam fitter is but they're not as far removed as your typical programmer, for example.
    - worik 2y ago
HPsquared 2y ago
Using the brain can be especially hard work because you can't let your mind wander. You're giving over more of yourself to the employer.
- astura 2y ago
  And a roofer can?
- giraffe_lady 2y ago
  I've done a lot of blue collar work too and construction and line cooking are not in my experience more conducive to daydreaming than programming is. I assume nearly all workers are fully engaged.
astura 2y ago
>“Not working” is obviously wrong because using brain is work, and it’s exhausting work in many cases. "Exhausting work," lol. The only people who say nonsense like this are the people who've never done manual labor for a living. I've done both and there's just no comparison of exhaustion levels.
- HeyLaughingBoy 2y ago
  Dude. I live on a horse farm. My day starts and ends with heavy manual labor working around animals that can kill me in an instant if they're in a bad mood or I have the misfortune to get in the middle of a beef between two of them. Most of yesterday, the temperature was in the single digits Fahrenheit with wind gusts to 50mph. I'm also a programmer. There are some days I couldn't tell you which of the two jobs is the more exhausting.
  - 1832 2y ago
    Its the first one
    - astura 2y ago
      Indeed! Even though people who've never had to do manual labor for a living will downvote you. It doesn't make it untrue.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- munificent 2y ago
  Is it so hard for you to respond with empathy instead of scorn? I've also done both and each can leave me profoundly exhausted in very different ways. Neither flavor of exhaustion is worse than the other, just different.
  - astura 2y ago
    >Is it so hard for you to respond with empathy instead of scorn? When someone compares programing to manual labor implying that programming is more tiring or at least as tiring, yes, absolutely, 100%, it's incredibly difficult for me to respond with empathy. Impossible, even. It's clear that person has had an incredibly sheltered life. Thanks for asking? I guess???

by devjab 2y ago

michaelt 2y ago

> What is interesting in the debate to me, is that I see a lot of IT work as blue collar work. Society has loads of edge cases like this. I broke my arm a few years back, went to hospital, and a surgeon put some titanium plates and screws in. The orthopaedic surgeon spends a lot of the day standing, they repeat similar work every day with minor variations, they can't work remotely, they're exposed to hazardous chemicals, they have face-to-face interactions with customers, they earn money by working rather than from investments or inheritance, they're union members, they get paid overtime, they wear blue employer-issued workwear, many do shift work, and they literally put in screws for a living. And yet nobody would say surgeons are blue collar workers. Maybe because of the $500k salaries, or the air-conditioned hospitals they work in, or because their status is equivalent to doctors who are pretty much the definition of upper-middle-class tie-wearing knowledge workers.

sarchertech 2y ago
> they're union members, they get paid overtime Very few surgeons are union members. They frequently work for outside groups and are paid per procedure. The ones that do work for the hospital on salary don’t get overtime. >status is equivalent to doctors They are doctors. Both in title and in function. Most surgeons only operate a couple days a week. The rest of their time they see patients in clinic, and an outside observer couldn’t tell the difference between their work environment and a primary care physician’s. You are onto something though. My wife is an ER doctor and her job is very similar to blue collar service jobs (if you consider service jobs blue collar). She doesn’t make her own schedule. She works insane shifts (one day she could work 7a-4p, the next 10p-7a). She interacts with patients directly all day. The pay is a lot better, but the hours are worse than any retail job I’ve ever heard of, and you can’t call in sick. Her coworker was sick and could barely get out of bed, but she came in early to have a nurse give her an IV so she could power through her shift—that kind of thing is very common. Plus you have the ultimate responsibility for every patient that comes through the door. You have to make sure you don’t miss anything serious every time—while at the same time, making sure that you don’t spend too much time with each patient. And the ER you’re working in is full because the floor is too full to admit new patients but the ER can’t just shut the door, so patients are boarding in the halls. Oh and if you mess up, you can literally lose your house when a jury awards someone more than your malpractice insurance will cover.
- pc86 2y ago
  They're going to be members of the American Medical Association and likely at least one of the American Academy of Orthopedic Surgeons, the American Board of Orthopedic Surgeons, and/or the American Council for Graduate Medical Education. The difference between these organizations and unions pretty much starts and ends with "negotiate collectively with your employer directly" because they all (especially the AMA and ACGME) act to keep salaries and prestige high. They're not a union member the same way a teacher, police officer, or steam fitter is but they're not as far removed as your typical programmer, for example.
  - worik 2y ago

HPsquared 2y ago

Using the brain can be especially hard work because you can't let your mind wander. You're giving over more of yourself to the employer.

astura 2y ago
And a roofer can?
giraffe_lady 2y ago
I've done a lot of blue collar work too and construction and line cooking are not in my experience more conducive to daydreaming than programming is. I assume nearly all workers are fully engaged.

astura 2y ago

>“Not working” is obviously wrong because using brain is work, and it’s exhausting work in many cases. "Exhausting work," lol. The only people who say nonsense like this are the people who've never done manual labor for a living. I've done both and there's just no comparison of exhaustion levels.

HeyLaughingBoy 2y ago
Dude. I live on a horse farm. My day starts and ends with heavy manual labor working around animals that can kill me in an instant if they're in a bad mood or I have the misfortune to get in the middle of a beef between two of them. Most of yesterday, the temperature was in the single digits Fahrenheit with wind gusts to 50mph. I'm also a programmer. There are some days I couldn't tell you which of the two jobs is the more exhausting.
- 1832 2y ago
  Its the first one
  - astura 2y ago
    Indeed! Even though people who've never had to do manual labor for a living will downvote you. It doesn't make it untrue.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
munificent 2y ago
Is it so hard for you to respond with empathy instead of scorn? I've also done both and each can leave me profoundly exhausted in very different ways. Neither flavor of exhaustion is worse than the other, just different.
- astura 2y ago
  >Is it so hard for you to respond with empathy instead of scorn? When someone compares programing to manual labor implying that programming is more tiring or at least as tiring, yes, absolutely, 100%, it's incredibly difficult for me to respond with empathy. Impossible, even. It's clear that person has had an incredibly sheltered life. Thanks for asking? I guess???