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> much of the US GDP is tied to their suburb-living car-dependent lifestyle. [...] , but it doesn't create value. The "value" is for the citizens that prefer s

by jasode 2y ago

> much of the US GDP is tied to their suburb-living car-dependent lifestyle. [...] , but it doesn't create value. The "value" is for the citizens that prefer suburbs style living. People who prefer dense city living with mass-transportation and walkable errands like European cities or downtown NYC/Chicago are missing the fact that there's another group of people (possibly the majority) that actually prefer the suburbs. Yes, I know it seems illogical. But don't suburbs have the dependency on cars, and those ugly "stroads", and the "parking lot deserts", and "soulless cookie-cutter housing", etc, etc?!? Yes, all of that is true and detractors can keep piling on more derogatory labels but it still doesn't change the fact that many people really like the suburbs. A lot of USA college kids living in dorms in the middle of a "walkable city" have aspirations of buying a nice house out in the suburbs and hope they can land a high-paying job so they can afford that dream. Why do so many of these young people who have actual experience of living in the city want to get away from that and live in the suburbs?

scrollaway 2y ago
How much of this preference is genuine, versus just taught or forced? I live in Brussels and every time I welcome new American friends here and show them around, their mind is blown that it’s even possible to live in a city center at an affordable rate within walking distance to groceries, restaurants and activities.
- wepple 2y ago
  Taught or forced? That’s ridiculous. My kids like to play in our yard. I do woodwork as a hobby. My neighbors spend summer by their pool. I like my privacy. I like quiet and space. I like strong community. I spent 15 years apartment living all over the world, and couldn’t be happier moving to the suburbs.
  - rwyinuse 2y ago
    I agree. I wouldn't move to city center no matter how affordable or cheap it was. Living in an apartment block severely limits the way I can spend my free time compared to an actual house with a yard.
    - scrollaway 2y ago
      So get a house with a yard in Europe and get the best of both worlds. You know this exists here, too? Or just come visit a bit and be another name on the list of Americans who had their mind blown.
      - rwyinuse 2y ago
        I was talking about city centers. Good luck finding a house with a yard from city center of a major European city, for a price that you can afford without being a millionaire. Just like in America, living in a proper house in Europe does usually mean moving further away from city center into suburbs. The main difference is that those suburbs do have better public transportation.
      - wepple 2y ago
        > Or just come visit a bit and be another name on the list of Americans who had their mind blown. I’m not American (but live here), and have lived in Europe and traveled most of it. This HN hivemind if believing there is one type of person and one type of lifestyle is absolute lazy nonsense. I’m guessing you already know why I don’t need to drive a large pickup truck too?
  - DanielHB 2y ago
    Suburbs and detached houses are available in Europe as well, often with good public transport access (although there are plenty where you need a bicycle to get to a train station). It is just apartments are much cheaper and you can often not have a car if you live in an apartment.
    - Cumpiler69 2y ago
      >It is just apartments are much cheaper Where? Appartements in downtown Munich cost as much as in San Jose but salaries are one third of that.
      - DanielHB 2y ago
        I said suburbs in Europe, not downtown. Downtown is unaffordable EVERYWHERE in the world, even in 3rd world countries.
        Cumpiler69 2y ago
        Suburbs are cheap where? On what salary? Munich suburbs are equally unaffordable to buy something on a Munich wage, unless you're talking about buying in the boonies where you need to drive everywhere but that's no longer the suburbs but a whole different city/village, or you're a high roller at a FAANG, but that excludes 95% of working class people. My ex originally is from there and I used to work there and my colleagues from the Texas office had more purchasing power at local real-estate than their counterparts from the Munich office.
      - immibis 2y ago
        you said Munich. Go look at Berlin.
  - supplied_demand 2y ago
    It seems like it might be taught. I live in a Chicago neighborhood and have all of these things (a yard with a garden, space for woodworking, neighbors with pools, privacy, quiet space, strong community). Not everyone who lives in a city is in a highrise downtown, most aren't. Not everyone that lives in a city is in an apartment. You wouldn't know that by reading this thread. The two options seem to be a large house in the suburbs or a highrise downtown.
    - wepple 2y ago
      All of these things have magnitudes. Have you ever built a cedar strip canoe, or are you making wooden spoons? It would cost double what I pay for me to live with 1/4 of the space in a city. I made a pretty intentional decision about what I wanted, and actually have far more space than where I grew up. I was actually taught to live on less, but have gone in the far opposite direction.
      - spamizbad 2y ago
        I live in Chicago. I have 350sqft garage and a partially-finished conditioned 280sqft attic room that functions as a studio space. I have more "workshop" space than most of my friends in the suburbs who mostly just treat their garages as a storage space with a little workbench in the corner. My home is over a century old, although the garage is only 25 years old. Now, can suburban homes offer you MORE space? Absolutely! And if I had the kind of hobbies that merited that additional space I'd probably want to live there. However, as someone who grew up in the suburbs, has friends in the suburbs, etc - the number of friends I have who actually use that space for enjoyment and not junk storage is literally just 1 guy who has a sweet CNC and metal working space in his garage and basement. Everyone else has a garage used for cars + storage and a basement rumpus room with maybe a tiny 8x8 workshop somewhere near the mechanicals (HVAC and Water heater)
        wepple 2y ago
        Perhaps I’m simply not normal, and hence frustrated that someone suggested my desires are forced or taught. I do tend to be the one neighbor out in the yard the most by an order of magnitude. I also have a 60 acre rural property because even a quarter acre in the suburbs doesn’t give me enough space to play.
- Cumpiler69 2y ago
  Is housing Brussels city center actually affordable like you claim? Why do I feel like you're living in a bubble? I have friends who left Brussels city and moved out to avoid the high housing CoL, crime and drunk/homeless/junkies. I feel like you're overselling it.
  - justinclift 2y ago
    Maybe the high housing CoL is a change in recent years compared to the time period before that?
  - DanielHB 2y ago
    European cities have suburbs as well. In fact most people live in them, not in the city center. They are just VERY different from US ones. Mostly 4-6 story tall buildings clustered around a major transportation hub like a metro or train station (which also hosts shops, restaurants and groceries), with row-homes or single-home detached houses farther away.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - Cumpiler69 2y ago
      >European cities have suburbs as well. In fact most people live in them, not in the city center. You happen to have a source for this? This is definitely not the case in many place I lived.
  - scrollaway 2y ago
    I live at the heart of Brussels, 2BR, 1250 eur a month. It’s not the cheapest of the city but it’s also not the most expensive; in fact the most expensive side of the city is one of its suburbs. And living in the suburbs here doesn’t mean you have to use your car to buy milk, unlike the US. Stuff is still walking distance there. Cost of life is average. Belgium is actually pretty great for that. It’s just the weather that’s shit.
    - 2y ago
- piltdownman 2y ago
  Ditto Dublin. Incredibly walkable, with light rail and light tram services as well as a very mature (albeit expensive) taxi infrastructure and rentable bicycles for last-mile stuff. Even in the very heart of the city centre you have full sized German discount supermarkets like Aldi/Lidl, or Asian/E.European foodmarekts. A far cry from the food deserts and bodega pricing endemic in American cities. Even in the midst of a generational defining housing crisis, in what most people in Ireland would deem unfathomable HCOL, you can buy a 2 bed apartment around 70-80m2 in the CBD for less than €500,000. https://www.daft.ie/property-for-sale/ireland/apartments?location=dublin-1-dublin&location=dublin-2-dublin&salePrice_to=500000&numBeds_from=2 https://www.daft.ie/property-for-sale/ireland/apartments?loc... This is in the middle of the Silicon Docks for example, @ 90m2 with dedicated parking space underground, and a concierge service open 7 days a week. 10 minutes walk to Meta/Google/AirBnB/LinkedIn HQ. https://www.daft.ie/for-sale/apartment-13-hill-of-down-spencer-dock-dublin-1/5941558 https://www.daft.ie/for-sale/apartment-13-hill-of-down-spenc...
refurb 2y ago
Indeed. Look at the most expensive places to live in the Bay Area - it’s not the urban centers, it’s the suburbs. Americans like space. They like big houses. They like not hearing their neighbors. They like to live on a street that is quiet. Even the ones that don’t like driving are willing to do it as a trade off for all those things. Most of the young people I knew in SF who lived there in their 20’s - about 90% moved to the suburbs when they got older. Being close to bars or restaurants doesn’t matter much for most older people. What matters is low crime, space and good schools. They can drive to the city if they need to.
- syrjir 2y ago
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- throwaway2037 2y ago
  > Look at the most expensive places to live in the Bay Area - it’s not the urban centers, it’s the suburbs. Price per sq.m. in San Francisco for the top neighbourhoods is way higher than the suburbs, e.g., Nob Hill or Russian Hill or Pacific Heights. Getting a townhouse in those neighbourhoods is crazy expensive.
  - refurb 2y ago
    A small plot of land in a desirable location is $4M in Palo Alto. Sure the mansions in Pacific Heights are more, but they are mansions. Compare like for like.
    - throwaway2037 2y ago
      > A small plot of land in a desirable location is $4M in Palo Alto. What do you think this would cost in Pac Heights? Also, my comparison spoke of price per sq.m. Is there a better way to compare housing costs in different locations?
      - refurb 2y ago
        Are you talking about like-for-like? Or Pac Heights with a view of the Bay? Or a view of the city? Are you talking about land only? Or land and house? If you look at the most expensive sales in SF or the Peninsula, they aren't all that different - just shy of $50M. Regardless, my comment was more directed to middle to upper-middle class housing, not the $20M mansions in SF or 1,000 acres estates in the Peninsula. Compare a large single family home in SF to a large, single family home in Peninsula.
raverbashing 2y ago
Except there's not really a choice right? Family homes in city centers (in the US) are either very expensive or bad neighborhoods
- supplied_demand 2y ago
  Family homes in the best suburbs are also very expensive, even after being subsidize by the broader tax base. There are lots of places to live in cities that aren't the "city center" just like there are types of family homes that aren't single-family-homes.
  - ls612 2y ago
    This line about suburbs being subsidized is a lie that keeps getting repeated. If I live in a suburb and commute downtown to work my income counts towards the city GDP and tax base but I would be receiving government services from the suburbs. This isn’t a subsidy it’s providing people the services they need where they live instead of where they work.
    - Jensson 2y ago
      > my income counts towards the city GDP and tax base You pay taxes were you work instead of were you live? That is very unusual, typically you pay income taxes where you live. I don't see how paying taxes were you work could even work, what pays for your school or roads if all the money goes to another area?
      - vel0city 2y ago
        > typically you pay income taxes where you live Some bigger US cities have a city income tax which is applied regardless of where you live. I had family living in NJ and working in NYC. They paid NYC income taxes, NY income taxes, NJ income taxes, and federal income taxes.
        supplied_demand 2y ago
amtc80 2y ago
It isn't illogical. Americans move to suburbs because there aren't enough affordable cities. Then they complain about the cost of gas, energy, housing and taxes which are inherently worse with lower density. Suburbs aren't for standard of living, but affordability. You take the most available labour, the most available construction, and connect it with the most available transportation and you get suburbs. All without the need for much effective planning, organization or innovation. But eventually someone else does those things. And then suburbs are expensive in comparison.
- stuporglue 2y ago
  Suburbs are for standard of living, for me. I want more space, both in my home and in my yard, than I can get in the city. I want a 2+ car garage where I can build and drive a go-kart with my kids, fix my own car and have a little workshop to do woodworking. I want a garden that isn't blanketed by city air, and room for some fruit trees. I want room for a fire pit, and enough trees that I don't have line of sight into my neighbors windows. I don't want a farm. I don't need country living. Somewhere between 0.25 and 0.5 acres is about right for what I want to do, and that means the suburbs. I live in a Cologne, Germany right now. I have lived in Sao Paulo in the past. Big cities with lots to offer. I know big cities and their conveniences, and they're fine. But for the life I want to live, suburbs offer a better standard of living.
  - shafyy 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - ericmay 2y ago
      Just wanted to mention that what the OP is asking for is completely achievable in a great urban city. I live in an ideal mixed-use walkable neighborhood with a 2.5 car garage (that only holds one electric car). Not every house has that nor should it, but we can certainly build those features for those who want them and maintain walkability and good transit practices alongside mixed use. The problem with the suburbs isn’t the existence of the single family home, the problem is the zoning and design of the homes. > Man, this almost made me throw up because your post reaks of selfishness and privilege. Anyways, I hope you're at least aware of your extreme privilege. This doesn’t convince anyone of anything and it doesn’t help us with building better transit and walkable neighborhoods. When you tell someone that what they want is “extreme privilege” and “selfish” you turn them away from the conversation. Instead we should focus on showing them how their lifestyle isn’t actually incompatible with good urban planning and good transit, because it’s not. The future of American cities isn’t NYC, which I love and adore. We won’t have the density for that and skyscrapers and that level of density have their own problems too. Instead, we should look at mid-sized European cities and towns as a better model. We may have more single family homes and cars, but we can still build at the appropriate level of density and build different types of dwellings to meet people where they are in their life. Today it’s illegal to build an apartment building, coffee shop, restaurant, or small grocery store in the suburban neighborhood and we can’t build small, affordable units for folks either. This creates pricing imbalances and other issues.
jdblair 2y ago
Indeed, many people prefer living in the suburbs, but a big reason for this is the hidden subsidies the US provides for suburban development. When housing units are close together (town-homes, multi-unit buildings) the cost of infrastructure (sewer, water, roads, sidewalks, etc.) are shared by more units, and thus by more taxpayers. If the houses are farther apart, the cost per unit goes up. So its fine if you want to live in the suburbs, be we should have an honest accounting of the costs so suburban households are paying the full price of their spacious lifestyle. See this StrongTowns post about this issue: https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2023/7/6/stop-subsidizing-suburban-development-charge-it-what-it-costs https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2023/7/6/stop-subsidizin...
- greenavocado 2y ago
  I'm grateful that I was able to afford a home for my family. I am the sole provider and it costs half my income per month to live in a townhouse in the suburbs an hour away from a major city. It's hard enough as is.
- Uvix 2y ago
  Many suburbs are accounting for this in other ways already, by foisting ownership of that local infrastructure onto the HOA instead of handling them centrally through taxes or direct billing.
- 9rx 2y ago
  The trouble is that if suburbs weren't subsidized, there would be little reason to live there, seeing its residents move further out into more rural areas. The cities are willing to subsidize them as it is net beneficial to the city to have people who won't live in the city proper to still be nearby, improving economic activity in the "downtown" with access to more workers and consumers.
- treis 2y ago
  This comes up a lot but infrastructure is not the expensive part of government. It's schools, criminal justice, and other labor intensive services. All of which are more expensive per capita in cities than suburbs.
piltdownman 2y ago
What proportion of DINKs versus Families live in the suburbs vs the cities? The simple answer relates to raising kids - both in terms of safety/enrichment and in terms of basic things like school catchment areas, distance to young peoples amenities, and distance to the average friends house based on school catchment.
mistersquid 2y ago
> there's another group of people (possibly the majority) that actually prefer the suburbs With regard to the United States, you’re not even close. 80% of the US population live in cities. [0] [0] https://pac.org/impact/rural-americans-vs-urban-americans#:~:text=According%20to%20the%20Census%20Bureau,in%20areas%20classified%20as%20rural https://pac.org/impact/rural-americans-vs-urban-americans#:~....
- jasode 2y ago
  >With regard to the United States, you’re not even close. 80% of the US population live in cities. [0] For purposes of this discussion thread, we're just using "living in the cities" as shorthand for "high-density living with convenient mass-transit and walkable amenities". E.g. downtowns or multi-family housing near the city center where people can walk to the grocery store. The majority of USA citizens do not live in that arrangement. Instead, most Americans live in areas that depend on cars. The web page you're citing is using "cities" as shorthand for "downtowns + suburbs i.e. metroplexes" - vs - "rural farms".
- infecto 2y ago
  Have you ever been to the US? Sure, 80% live in cities but the majority of that number are suburban cities. LA, DFW, Miami...all cities with large populations but all requiring a car.
- hnewsenjoyer 2y ago
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- davemp 2y ago
  > According to the Census Bureau, 80% of the U.S. population lives in urban areas. The remaining 20% lives in areas classified as rural. *There isn’t a specific category for suburban areas* Sounds like the suburbs are counted as urban wrt the census.
- NeutralCrane 2y ago
  That statistic is defined as “urban” vs “rural”. By that definition, all American suburbs are counted as cities/urban areas. So the statistic doesn’t disprove their assertion.
stetrain 2y ago
> People who prefer dense city living with mass-transportation and walkable errands like European cities or downtown NYC/Chicago are missing the fact that there's another group of people (possibly the majority) that actually prefer the suburbs. Yes, I know it seems illogical. Of course. There are also people who enjoy walkable pedestrian and bike friendly places with lots of small local businesses to patronize. That doesn't require living in a "big dirty city", it really just means making actual towns with dense downtown centers where people can work, live, shop, and dine. Based on my experience with real estate prices, where townhomes near such thriving downtown developments can cost easily double of one in a suburban neighborhood a 15 minute drive away, the demand for that kind of living currently exceeds supply in many places. The answer isn't to remove all suburbia and replace it with dense walkability, the answer is to stop preventing the dense walkable development with strict single-family-detached zoning laws, parking minimums, etc. and let the supply of such places increase to meet demand. Nobody will come take your suburban house away from you, they just want to have as much freedom in choosing what they want as you get to choose what you want. And those that do prefer to live in big cities are just advocating for making those places better. The US has a lot of places that are definitely "city" but are still also car-dependent or at least not as friendly to walking, cycling, and mass transit as they should be. We can improve those without changing your suburban life one bit.
- trgn 2y ago
  it's and/and. Suburbanites impose their values on the city (free parking, highways, vote against bikelanes, ...). I don't care if they'd be in their suburbs and just live there. go live in the burbs, be happy, but don't degrade my neighborhood with your cars. we really can have our cake and eat it, nice cities for the people who prefer them, suburbs for the others, so much room.
  - mtalantikite 2y ago
    Absolutely this. Every time someone suggests dense urban living or asking for people to pay for their car-dependent life, suburbanites come out of the woodwork and scream and holler that their rights are being taken away. As if the majority of the country isn't suburban sprawl catering to car dependent life. We only have a handful of dense, walkable cities with public transit in the entire country. Suburbanites have plenty of places to choose from, literally anywhere else outside of NYC, Chicago, SF, and Boston. As a New Yorker, I'm totally fine with people choosing a suburban life. Do you, I don't care. But don't kill congestion pricing and think you're entitled to drive into the densest part of the United States and park for free in my neighborhood just because. Don't block funding for public transit for 40 years and then complain you need your car because the train is scary to you the two times a year you use it.
FooBarBizBazz 2y ago
You're watching people respond to price pressures and calling it their unforced preferences. This is like saying "obviously people prefer to be childless", or, possibly soon, "apparently people prefer to eat only rice and beans". The outcome arises from a coordination failure that individual actors cannot resolve just by making best-responses within a market.
kristianc 2y ago
> People who prefer dense city living with mass-transportation and walkable errands like European cities or downtown NYC/Chicago are missing the fact that there's another group of people (possibly the majority) that actually prefer the suburbs. Yes, I know it seems illogical. That’s because American cities do their best to make themselves as car-dependent and unpleasant in downtown areas as possible. Of course American college kids want to move out to the suburbs, because American downtowns are not nice places to live. Offer people the choice to live in nice central walkable neighbourhoods like in Europe and they tend to take it.

by jasode 2y ago

scrollaway 2y ago

How much of this preference is genuine, versus just taught or forced? I live in Brussels and every time I welcome new American friends here and show them around, their mind is blown that it’s even possible to live in a city center at an affordable rate within walking distance to groceries, restaurants and activities.

wepple 2y ago
Taught or forced? That’s ridiculous. My kids like to play in our yard. I do woodwork as a hobby. My neighbors spend summer by their pool. I like my privacy. I like quiet and space. I like strong community. I spent 15 years apartment living all over the world, and couldn’t be happier moving to the suburbs.
- rwyinuse 2y ago
  I agree. I wouldn't move to city center no matter how affordable or cheap it was. Living in an apartment block severely limits the way I can spend my free time compared to an actual house with a yard.
  - scrollaway 2y ago
    So get a house with a yard in Europe and get the best of both worlds. You know this exists here, too? Or just come visit a bit and be another name on the list of Americans who had their mind blown.
    - rwyinuse 2y ago
      I was talking about city centers. Good luck finding a house with a yard from city center of a major European city, for a price that you can afford without being a millionaire. Just like in America, living in a proper house in Europe does usually mean moving further away from city center into suburbs. The main difference is that those suburbs do have better public transportation.
    - wepple 2y ago
      > Or just come visit a bit and be another name on the list of Americans who had their mind blown. I’m not American (but live here), and have lived in Europe and traveled most of it. This HN hivemind if believing there is one type of person and one type of lifestyle is absolute lazy nonsense. I’m guessing you already know why I don’t need to drive a large pickup truck too?
- DanielHB 2y ago
  Suburbs and detached houses are available in Europe as well, often with good public transport access (although there are plenty where you need a bicycle to get to a train station). It is just apartments are much cheaper and you can often not have a car if you live in an apartment.
  - Cumpiler69 2y ago
    >It is just apartments are much cheaper Where? Appartements in downtown Munich cost as much as in San Jose but salaries are one third of that.
    - DanielHB 2y ago
      I said suburbs in Europe, not downtown. Downtown is unaffordable EVERYWHERE in the world, even in 3rd world countries.
      - Cumpiler69 2y ago
        Suburbs are cheap where? On what salary? Munich suburbs are equally unaffordable to buy something on a Munich wage, unless you're talking about buying in the boonies where you need to drive everywhere but that's no longer the suburbs but a whole different city/village, or you're a high roller at a FAANG, but that excludes 95% of working class people. My ex originally is from there and I used to work there and my colleagues from the Texas office had more purchasing power at local real-estate than their counterparts from the Munich office.
    - immibis 2y ago
      you said Munich. Go look at Berlin.
- supplied_demand 2y ago
  It seems like it might be taught. I live in a Chicago neighborhood and have all of these things (a yard with a garden, space for woodworking, neighbors with pools, privacy, quiet space, strong community). Not everyone who lives in a city is in a highrise downtown, most aren't. Not everyone that lives in a city is in an apartment. You wouldn't know that by reading this thread. The two options seem to be a large house in the suburbs or a highrise downtown.
  - wepple 2y ago
    All of these things have magnitudes. Have you ever built a cedar strip canoe, or are you making wooden spoons? It would cost double what I pay for me to live with 1/4 of the space in a city. I made a pretty intentional decision about what I wanted, and actually have far more space than where I grew up. I was actually taught to live on less, but have gone in the far opposite direction.
    - spamizbad 2y ago
      I live in Chicago. I have 350sqft garage and a partially-finished conditioned 280sqft attic room that functions as a studio space. I have more "workshop" space than most of my friends in the suburbs who mostly just treat their garages as a storage space with a little workbench in the corner. My home is over a century old, although the garage is only 25 years old. Now, can suburban homes offer you MORE space? Absolutely! And if I had the kind of hobbies that merited that additional space I'd probably want to live there. However, as someone who grew up in the suburbs, has friends in the suburbs, etc - the number of friends I have who actually use that space for enjoyment and not junk storage is literally just 1 guy who has a sweet CNC and metal working space in his garage and basement. Everyone else has a garage used for cars + storage and a basement rumpus room with maybe a tiny 8x8 workshop somewhere near the mechanicals (HVAC and Water heater)
      - wepple 2y ago
        Perhaps I’m simply not normal, and hence frustrated that someone suggested my desires are forced or taught. I do tend to be the one neighbor out in the yard the most by an order of magnitude. I also have a 60 acre rural property because even a quarter acre in the suburbs doesn’t give me enough space to play.
Cumpiler69 2y ago
Is housing Brussels city center actually affordable like you claim? Why do I feel like you're living in a bubble? I have friends who left Brussels city and moved out to avoid the high housing CoL, crime and drunk/homeless/junkies. I feel like you're overselling it.
- justinclift 2y ago
  Maybe the high housing CoL is a change in recent years compared to the time period before that?
- DanielHB 2y ago
  European cities have suburbs as well. In fact most people live in them, not in the city center. They are just VERY different from US ones. Mostly 4-6 story tall buildings clustered around a major transportation hub like a metro or train station (which also hosts shops, restaurants and groceries), with row-homes or single-home detached houses farther away.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - Cumpiler69 2y ago
    >European cities have suburbs as well. In fact most people live in them, not in the city center. You happen to have a source for this? This is definitely not the case in many place I lived.
- scrollaway 2y ago
  I live at the heart of Brussels, 2BR, 1250 eur a month. It’s not the cheapest of the city but it’s also not the most expensive; in fact the most expensive side of the city is one of its suburbs. And living in the suburbs here doesn’t mean you have to use your car to buy milk, unlike the US. Stuff is still walking distance there. Cost of life is average. Belgium is actually pretty great for that. It’s just the weather that’s shit.
  - 2y ago
piltdownman 2y ago
Ditto Dublin. Incredibly walkable, with light rail and light tram services as well as a very mature (albeit expensive) taxi infrastructure and rentable bicycles for last-mile stuff. Even in the very heart of the city centre you have full sized German discount supermarkets like Aldi/Lidl, or Asian/E.European foodmarekts. A far cry from the food deserts and bodega pricing endemic in American cities. Even in the midst of a generational defining housing crisis, in what most people in Ireland would deem unfathomable HCOL, you can buy a 2 bed apartment around 70-80m2 in the CBD for less than €500,000. https://www.daft.ie/property-for-sale/ireland/apartments?location=dublin-1-dublin&location=dublin-2-dublin&salePrice_to=500000&numBeds_from=2 https://www.daft.ie/property-for-sale/ireland/apartments?loc... This is in the middle of the Silicon Docks for example, @ 90m2 with dedicated parking space underground, and a concierge service open 7 days a week. 10 minutes walk to Meta/Google/AirBnB/LinkedIn HQ. https://www.daft.ie/for-sale/apartment-13-hill-of-down-spencer-dock-dublin-1/5941558 https://www.daft.ie/for-sale/apartment-13-hill-of-down-spenc...

refurb 2y ago

Indeed. Look at the most expensive places to live in the Bay Area - it’s not the urban centers, it’s the suburbs. Americans like space. They like big houses. They like not hearing their neighbors. They like to live on a street that is quiet. Even the ones that don’t like driving are willing to do it as a trade off for all those things. Most of the young people I knew in SF who lived there in their 20’s - about 90% moved to the suburbs when they got older. Being close to bars or restaurants doesn’t matter much for most older people. What matters is low crime, space and good schools. They can drive to the city if they need to.

syrjir 2y ago
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throwaway2037 2y ago
> Look at the most expensive places to live in the Bay Area - it’s not the urban centers, it’s the suburbs. Price per sq.m. in San Francisco for the top neighbourhoods is way higher than the suburbs, e.g., Nob Hill or Russian Hill or Pacific Heights. Getting a townhouse in those neighbourhoods is crazy expensive.
- refurb 2y ago
  A small plot of land in a desirable location is $4M in Palo Alto. Sure the mansions in Pacific Heights are more, but they are mansions. Compare like for like.
  - throwaway2037 2y ago
    > A small plot of land in a desirable location is $4M in Palo Alto. What do you think this would cost in Pac Heights? Also, my comparison spoke of price per sq.m. Is there a better way to compare housing costs in different locations?
    - refurb 2y ago
      Are you talking about like-for-like? Or Pac Heights with a view of the Bay? Or a view of the city? Are you talking about land only? Or land and house? If you look at the most expensive sales in SF or the Peninsula, they aren't all that different - just shy of $50M. Regardless, my comment was more directed to middle to upper-middle class housing, not the $20M mansions in SF or 1,000 acres estates in the Peninsula. Compare a large single family home in SF to a large, single family home in Peninsula.

raverbashing 2y ago

Except there's not really a choice right? Family homes in city centers (in the US) are either very expensive or bad neighborhoods

supplied_demand 2y ago
Family homes in the best suburbs are also very expensive, even after being subsidize by the broader tax base. There are lots of places to live in cities that aren't the "city center" just like there are types of family homes that aren't single-family-homes.
- ls612 2y ago
  This line about suburbs being subsidized is a lie that keeps getting repeated. If I live in a suburb and commute downtown to work my income counts towards the city GDP and tax base but I would be receiving government services from the suburbs. This isn’t a subsidy it’s providing people the services they need where they live instead of where they work.
  - Jensson 2y ago
    > my income counts towards the city GDP and tax base You pay taxes were you work instead of were you live? That is very unusual, typically you pay income taxes where you live. I don't see how paying taxes were you work could even work, what pays for your school or roads if all the money goes to another area?
    - vel0city 2y ago
      > typically you pay income taxes where you live Some bigger US cities have a city income tax which is applied regardless of where you live. I had family living in NJ and working in NYC. They paid NYC income taxes, NY income taxes, NJ income taxes, and federal income taxes.
      - supplied_demand 2y ago

amtc80 2y ago

It isn't illogical. Americans move to suburbs because there aren't enough affordable cities. Then they complain about the cost of gas, energy, housing and taxes which are inherently worse with lower density. Suburbs aren't for standard of living, but affordability. You take the most available labour, the most available construction, and connect it with the most available transportation and you get suburbs. All without the need for much effective planning, organization or innovation. But eventually someone else does those things. And then suburbs are expensive in comparison.

stuporglue 2y ago
Suburbs are for standard of living, for me. I want more space, both in my home and in my yard, than I can get in the city. I want a 2+ car garage where I can build and drive a go-kart with my kids, fix my own car and have a little workshop to do woodworking. I want a garden that isn't blanketed by city air, and room for some fruit trees. I want room for a fire pit, and enough trees that I don't have line of sight into my neighbors windows. I don't want a farm. I don't need country living. Somewhere between 0.25 and 0.5 acres is about right for what I want to do, and that means the suburbs. I live in a Cologne, Germany right now. I have lived in Sao Paulo in the past. Big cities with lots to offer. I know big cities and their conveniences, and they're fine. But for the life I want to live, suburbs offer a better standard of living.
- shafyy 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - ericmay 2y ago
    Just wanted to mention that what the OP is asking for is completely achievable in a great urban city. I live in an ideal mixed-use walkable neighborhood with a 2.5 car garage (that only holds one electric car). Not every house has that nor should it, but we can certainly build those features for those who want them and maintain walkability and good transit practices alongside mixed use. The problem with the suburbs isn’t the existence of the single family home, the problem is the zoning and design of the homes. > Man, this almost made me throw up because your post reaks of selfishness and privilege. Anyways, I hope you're at least aware of your extreme privilege. This doesn’t convince anyone of anything and it doesn’t help us with building better transit and walkable neighborhoods. When you tell someone that what they want is “extreme privilege” and “selfish” you turn them away from the conversation. Instead we should focus on showing them how their lifestyle isn’t actually incompatible with good urban planning and good transit, because it’s not. The future of American cities isn’t NYC, which I love and adore. We won’t have the density for that and skyscrapers and that level of density have their own problems too. Instead, we should look at mid-sized European cities and towns as a better model. We may have more single family homes and cars, but we can still build at the appropriate level of density and build different types of dwellings to meet people where they are in their life. Today it’s illegal to build an apartment building, coffee shop, restaurant, or small grocery store in the suburban neighborhood and we can’t build small, affordable units for folks either. This creates pricing imbalances and other issues.

jdblair 2y ago

Indeed, many people prefer living in the suburbs, but a big reason for this is the hidden subsidies the US provides for suburban development. When housing units are close together (town-homes, multi-unit buildings) the cost of infrastructure (sewer, water, roads, sidewalks, etc.) are shared by more units, and thus by more taxpayers. If the houses are farther apart, the cost per unit goes up. So its fine if you want to live in the suburbs, be we should have an honest accounting of the costs so suburban households are paying the full price of their spacious lifestyle. See this StrongTowns post about this issue: https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2023/7/6/stop-subsidizing-suburban-development-charge-it-what-it-costs https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2023/7/6/stop-subsidizin...

greenavocado 2y ago
I'm grateful that I was able to afford a home for my family. I am the sole provider and it costs half my income per month to live in a townhouse in the suburbs an hour away from a major city. It's hard enough as is.
Uvix 2y ago
Many suburbs are accounting for this in other ways already, by foisting ownership of that local infrastructure onto the HOA instead of handling them centrally through taxes or direct billing.
9rx 2y ago
The trouble is that if suburbs weren't subsidized, there would be little reason to live there, seeing its residents move further out into more rural areas. The cities are willing to subsidize them as it is net beneficial to the city to have people who won't live in the city proper to still be nearby, improving economic activity in the "downtown" with access to more workers and consumers.
treis 2y ago
This comes up a lot but infrastructure is not the expensive part of government. It's schools, criminal justice, and other labor intensive services. All of which are more expensive per capita in cities than suburbs.

piltdownman 2y ago

What proportion of DINKs versus Families live in the suburbs vs the cities? The simple answer relates to raising kids - both in terms of safety/enrichment and in terms of basic things like school catchment areas, distance to young peoples amenities, and distance to the average friends house based on school catchment.

mistersquid 2y ago

> there's another group of people (possibly the majority) that actually prefer the suburbs With regard to the United States, you’re not even close. 80% of the US population live in cities. [0] [0] https://pac.org/impact/rural-americans-vs-urban-americans#:~:text=According%20to%20the%20Census%20Bureau,in%20areas%20classified%20as%20rural https://pac.org/impact/rural-americans-vs-urban-americans#:~....

jasode 2y ago
>With regard to the United States, you’re not even close. 80% of the US population live in cities. [0] For purposes of this discussion thread, we're just using "living in the cities" as shorthand for "high-density living with convenient mass-transit and walkable amenities". E.g. downtowns or multi-family housing near the city center where people can walk to the grocery store. The majority of USA citizens do not live in that arrangement. Instead, most Americans live in areas that depend on cars. The web page you're citing is using "cities" as shorthand for "downtowns + suburbs i.e. metroplexes" - vs - "rural farms".
infecto 2y ago
Have you ever been to the US? Sure, 80% live in cities but the majority of that number are suburban cities. LA, DFW, Miami...all cities with large populations but all requiring a car.
hnewsenjoyer 2y ago
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davemp 2y ago
> According to the Census Bureau, 80% of the U.S. population lives in urban areas. The remaining 20% lives in areas classified as rural. *There isn’t a specific category for suburban areas* Sounds like the suburbs are counted as urban wrt the census.
NeutralCrane 2y ago
That statistic is defined as “urban” vs “rural”. By that definition, all American suburbs are counted as cities/urban areas. So the statistic doesn’t disprove their assertion.

stetrain 2y ago

> People who prefer dense city living with mass-transportation and walkable errands like European cities or downtown NYC/Chicago are missing the fact that there's another group of people (possibly the majority) that actually prefer the suburbs. Yes, I know it seems illogical. Of course. There are also people who enjoy walkable pedestrian and bike friendly places with lots of small local businesses to patronize. That doesn't require living in a "big dirty city", it really just means making actual towns with dense downtown centers where people can work, live, shop, and dine. Based on my experience with real estate prices, where townhomes near such thriving downtown developments can cost easily double of one in a suburban neighborhood a 15 minute drive away, the demand for that kind of living currently exceeds supply in many places. The answer isn't to remove all suburbia and replace it with dense walkability, the answer is to stop preventing the dense walkable development with strict single-family-detached zoning laws, parking minimums, etc. and let the supply of such places increase to meet demand. Nobody will come take your suburban house away from you, they just want to have as much freedom in choosing what they want as you get to choose what you want. And those that do prefer to live in big cities are just advocating for making those places better. The US has a lot of places that are definitely "city" but are still also car-dependent or at least not as friendly to walking, cycling, and mass transit as they should be. We can improve those without changing your suburban life one bit.

trgn 2y ago
it's and/and. Suburbanites impose their values on the city (free parking, highways, vote against bikelanes, ...). I don't care if they'd be in their suburbs and just live there. go live in the burbs, be happy, but don't degrade my neighborhood with your cars. we really can have our cake and eat it, nice cities for the people who prefer them, suburbs for the others, so much room.
- mtalantikite 2y ago
  Absolutely this. Every time someone suggests dense urban living or asking for people to pay for their car-dependent life, suburbanites come out of the woodwork and scream and holler that their rights are being taken away. As if the majority of the country isn't suburban sprawl catering to car dependent life. We only have a handful of dense, walkable cities with public transit in the entire country. Suburbanites have plenty of places to choose from, literally anywhere else outside of NYC, Chicago, SF, and Boston. As a New Yorker, I'm totally fine with people choosing a suburban life. Do you, I don't care. But don't kill congestion pricing and think you're entitled to drive into the densest part of the United States and park for free in my neighborhood just because. Don't block funding for public transit for 40 years and then complain you need your car because the train is scary to you the two times a year you use it.

FooBarBizBazz 2y ago

You're watching people respond to price pressures and calling it their unforced preferences. This is like saying "obviously people prefer to be childless", or, possibly soon, "apparently people prefer to eat only rice and beans". The outcome arises from a coordination failure that individual actors cannot resolve just by making best-responses within a market.

kristianc 2y ago