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I was thinking the same thing the other day. Like how much of the US GDP is tied to their suburb-living car-dependent lifestyle. What percentage of the GDP is a

I was thinking the same thing the other day. Like how much of the US GDP is tied to their suburb-living car-dependent lifestyle. What percentage of the GDP is all that infrastructure (sewage, heating, power plants, power transmission, car production, road maintenance)? Sure that create jobs, especially lower-skilled jobs which are important for society. But at the same time they didn't really need to exist. It feels like much like defense spending, it create jobs, but it doesn't create value.

clarionbell 2y ago
Defense spending is necessary, if you want to keep your globalised markets and reasonable level of international security. Europe is now experiencing what happens if drop the "useless" defense spending too low.
- throawayonthe 2y ago
  [dead]
- rdm_blackhole 2y ago
  I agree with you. I will go even further by saying that the EU being caught with it's pants down is by design. Everybody rushed to join NATO and decided since the US was there as a backstop, they no longer needed to invest in their own defense. It's a little bit like what happened in 2008 with the too big too fail banks and the bailout. If someone else is always there to pick up the slack, then what is the point of changing the status quo. The EU countries were happy about this because they are broke. The US was happy to keep it's status as the global cop of the world making sure everybody stays in line. This line of thinking worked since the fall of the USSR but the rise of China, India and the global south is changing the world order as we speak.
  - rwyinuse 2y ago
    Everybody except Eastern EU countries closest to Russia. It's not just NATO, but also knowledge that they won't be attacked first which has resulted in low defense spending in Western Europe.
    - dathinab 2y ago
      > won't be attacked first that isn't really the issue the issue is that, at least for a long time, they where too naive believing Russia never would go as far as attacking NATO member or economical partners was that dump, yes, but that was a _very_ wide spread believe and while I have seen that mindset a lot I haven't really seen any one not worrying because there are other countries in between. I mean maybe such people do exist, further west then I live. Like in general until recently, even after the annexation of the Crimea, there commonly was the consensus that the time of offensive wars between European countries (including eastern EU and Russia) is over because it makes so little sense (economically, power wise) that none one would be dump enough to do that. But no one calculated in a autocrat with Napoleonic complex, or should be say soviet union complex. And if told the pleasant truth, with facts, people did what they always do with unpleasant truths: Try to ignore them.
  - buran77 2y ago
    > the EU being caught with it's pants down is by design Being by design means they weren't really "caught" with their pants down (in the classical "caught exactly at the wrong time") as much as they chose to always wear just underwear expecting the US to punch anyone who laughs in the face. The EU chose to "purchase" protection from the US, paid via various means. Mainly providing credibility for whatever US needs done, and make the difference between "righteous" and "callous". What they discover now is that either the US can be said was caught with the pants down unable to properly project power and provide that purchased security, or maybe the EU was caught with the pants down because they were unable to pay (less likely). Regardless, this is like realizing your service provider is no longer reliable, you'll look inside or elsewhere. At the very least you no longer look at that provider as trustworthy, and stop building anything relying on their services. The cost of this will be spread all around but effectively it gave China, who has no issues thrusting ahead even without someone to clean up their image, an even bigger boost. It even gave Russia a boost, if you could have believed anything in the world can still do that. But a couple of decades of weak leadership on both sides of the Atlantic conspired to achieve just that... a US desperately scrambling to stumble China after realizing that the go-to for all their problems (the "war for freedom") is hard to pull off this time, and an EU that realized that outsourcing critical safety and security aspects is a bad idea long term. My pessimistic 2c are that the next rounds of leaders will make it worse, on one side by not understanding that the "war for freedom" is hard to pull off this time, on the other side by thinking that outsourcing to someone else will definitely make it better.
- guappa 2y ago
  Local conflicts get used by the USA as proxy wars? Corrupt politicians going against the interests of their own nation to appease USA? Can you be clearer?
jasode 2y ago
> much of the US GDP is tied to their suburb-living car-dependent lifestyle. [...] , but it doesn't create value. The "value" is for the citizens that prefer suburbs style living. People who prefer dense city living with mass-transportation and walkable errands like European cities or downtown NYC/Chicago are missing the fact that there's another group of people (possibly the majority) that actually prefer the suburbs. Yes, I know it seems illogical. But don't suburbs have the dependency on cars, and those ugly "stroads", and the "parking lot deserts", and "soulless cookie-cutter housing", etc, etc?!? Yes, all of that is true and detractors can keep piling on more derogatory labels but it still doesn't change the fact that many people really like the suburbs. A lot of USA college kids living in dorms in the middle of a "walkable city" have aspirations of buying a nice house out in the suburbs and hope they can land a high-paying job so they can afford that dream. Why do so many of these young people who have actual experience of living in the city want to get away from that and live in the suburbs?
- scrollaway 2y ago
  How much of this preference is genuine, versus just taught or forced? I live in Brussels and every time I welcome new American friends here and show them around, their mind is blown that it’s even possible to live in a city center at an affordable rate within walking distance to groceries, restaurants and activities.
  - wepple 2y ago
    Taught or forced? That’s ridiculous. My kids like to play in our yard. I do woodwork as a hobby. My neighbors spend summer by their pool. I like my privacy. I like quiet and space. I like strong community. I spent 15 years apartment living all over the world, and couldn’t be happier moving to the suburbs.
    - rwyinuse 2y ago
      I agree. I wouldn't move to city center no matter how affordable or cheap it was. Living in an apartment block severely limits the way I can spend my free time compared to an actual house with a yard.
avidphantasm 2y ago
I would like you to explain why you think the creation of infrastructure involves low-skill jobs.
qeternity 2y ago
> It feels like much like defense spending, it create jobs, but it doesn't create value. This is the safest period in human history by a huge margin. It may not feel that way given the ultra connected, headline consuming nature of most people these days. But it is true. Global trade has lifted more people out of poverty than anything else, and that was first enabled by maritime trade which was implicitly secured by the US Navy post WW2. The Internet is the second coming of that, the invention of which was a result of US military spending. You may think that US defense spending is too high, or take other faults with the US military industrial complex. But to say that it provides no value is uninformed.
- PittleyDunkin 2y ago
  It certainly provides value—mostly the internationally wealthy. Certainly not to the people footing the bill, who are largely restricted from accessing the windfalls of these profits.
- phtrivier 2y ago
  > This is the safest period in human history by a huge margin. There has been almost ten times more victims of conflict in 2023 as in 2005. [1] And, as you said, we are now a bit more aware of those deaths (although I suspect a large amount occurred in conflicts that don't make western news headlines.) The number of victims might pale against WWII, of course - but we're slowly arriving at time where WWII is not only "last century", but a "century ago". I don't think anyone compared the figures of the Vietnam War of the 1960s to the US civil war of 1860s. Or did they ? Anyway, in the average life span of an average human being with a normal memory, this is more likely to be one of the _worst_ period. [1] https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/deaths-in-armed-conflicts-by-type https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/deaths-in-armed-conflicts...
  - qeternity 2y ago
    > There has been almost ten times more victims of conflict in 2023 as in 2005. You're talking about an 18 year period...do you know how long human history is? > average life span of an average human being with a normal memory I think you entirely missed the point of my comment, which is this: it feels more dangerous. But it isn't.
jaco6 2y ago
Sewage, heating, and power plants are included in GDP figures. Government spending is a GDP subheading. And such things certainly create value. I derive significant value every day from my warm, insulated, suburban bathroom. Furthermore, your assertion that the defense industry doesn’t provide value is questionable. Until you can convince the various state governments of the world to unite in a global superstate, defense spending is a necessary deterrent to invasion and exploitation by other states, so it is, in fact, valuable. And while I agree that suburbs aren’t the ideal form of urban organization, they aren’t actually the cause of all the social ills that you imagine them to be. Depression and addiction are driven by loneliness, and loneliness is almost as high in urban societies as suburban ones. Obesity may be slightly aggravated by car dependence, but it is still historically high and a major problem in the walking/public transport countries of Europe. So no, the demon of suburban car dependence does not provide the explanation for all ills.
- drsim 2y ago
  > Obesity may be slightly aggravated by car dependence, but it is still historically high and a major problem in the walking/public transport countries of Europe. I’d like to learn more about this. That hasn’t been my personal experience at all. Looking at the national level is challenging, as urban and suburban and income levels must be a strong factor.
- DanielHB 2y ago
  I haven't phrased it very well, I meant to say _american_ style suburbs are very... wasteful on resources, land and capital. European cities have suburbs as well, they are just usually 4-6 store tall buildings close to metro stations with row-houses and detached houses a bit farther out. Detached houses are not the main means of living for most people in Europe, but if you want one you can still get one, it just costs more than an apartment (especially in colder countries).
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - syrjir 2y ago
dmschulman 2y ago
hmm what could have happened in the last 3-4 years that would impact US life expectancy? also a huge part of that decline is preventable death due to drug overdose.

clarionbell 2y ago

Defense spending is necessary, if you want to keep your globalised markets and reasonable level of international security. Europe is now experiencing what happens if drop the "useless" defense spending too low.

throawayonthe 2y ago
[dead]
rdm_blackhole 2y ago
I agree with you. I will go even further by saying that the EU being caught with it's pants down is by design. Everybody rushed to join NATO and decided since the US was there as a backstop, they no longer needed to invest in their own defense. It's a little bit like what happened in 2008 with the too big too fail banks and the bailout. If someone else is always there to pick up the slack, then what is the point of changing the status quo. The EU countries were happy about this because they are broke. The US was happy to keep it's status as the global cop of the world making sure everybody stays in line. This line of thinking worked since the fall of the USSR but the rise of China, India and the global south is changing the world order as we speak.
- rwyinuse 2y ago
  Everybody except Eastern EU countries closest to Russia. It's not just NATO, but also knowledge that they won't be attacked first which has resulted in low defense spending in Western Europe.
  - dathinab 2y ago
    > won't be attacked first that isn't really the issue the issue is that, at least for a long time, they where too naive believing Russia never would go as far as attacking NATO member or economical partners was that dump, yes, but that was a _very_ wide spread believe and while I have seen that mindset a lot I haven't really seen any one not worrying because there are other countries in between. I mean maybe such people do exist, further west then I live. Like in general until recently, even after the annexation of the Crimea, there commonly was the consensus that the time of offensive wars between European countries (including eastern EU and Russia) is over because it makes so little sense (economically, power wise) that none one would be dump enough to do that. But no one calculated in a autocrat with Napoleonic complex, or should be say soviet union complex. And if told the pleasant truth, with facts, people did what they always do with unpleasant truths: Try to ignore them.
- buran77 2y ago
  > the EU being caught with it's pants down is by design Being by design means they weren't really "caught" with their pants down (in the classical "caught exactly at the wrong time") as much as they chose to always wear just underwear expecting the US to punch anyone who laughs in the face. The EU chose to "purchase" protection from the US, paid via various means. Mainly providing credibility for whatever US needs done, and make the difference between "righteous" and "callous". What they discover now is that either the US can be said was caught with the pants down unable to properly project power and provide that purchased security, or maybe the EU was caught with the pants down because they were unable to pay (less likely). Regardless, this is like realizing your service provider is no longer reliable, you'll look inside or elsewhere. At the very least you no longer look at that provider as trustworthy, and stop building anything relying on their services. The cost of this will be spread all around but effectively it gave China, who has no issues thrusting ahead even without someone to clean up their image, an even bigger boost. It even gave Russia a boost, if you could have believed anything in the world can still do that. But a couple of decades of weak leadership on both sides of the Atlantic conspired to achieve just that... a US desperately scrambling to stumble China after realizing that the go-to for all their problems (the "war for freedom") is hard to pull off this time, and an EU that realized that outsourcing critical safety and security aspects is a bad idea long term. My pessimistic 2c are that the next rounds of leaders will make it worse, on one side by not understanding that the "war for freedom" is hard to pull off this time, on the other side by thinking that outsourcing to someone else will definitely make it better.
guappa 2y ago
Local conflicts get used by the USA as proxy wars? Corrupt politicians going against the interests of their own nation to appease USA? Can you be clearer?

jasode 2y ago

> much of the US GDP is tied to their suburb-living car-dependent lifestyle. [...] , but it doesn't create value. The "value" is for the citizens that prefer suburbs style living. People who prefer dense city living with mass-transportation and walkable errands like European cities or downtown NYC/Chicago are missing the fact that there's another group of people (possibly the majority) that actually prefer the suburbs. Yes, I know it seems illogical. But don't suburbs have the dependency on cars, and those ugly "stroads", and the "parking lot deserts", and "soulless cookie-cutter housing", etc, etc?!? Yes, all of that is true and detractors can keep piling on more derogatory labels but it still doesn't change the fact that many people really like the suburbs. A lot of USA college kids living in dorms in the middle of a "walkable city" have aspirations of buying a nice house out in the suburbs and hope they can land a high-paying job so they can afford that dream. Why do so many of these young people who have actual experience of living in the city want to get away from that and live in the suburbs?

scrollaway 2y ago
How much of this preference is genuine, versus just taught or forced? I live in Brussels and every time I welcome new American friends here and show them around, their mind is blown that it’s even possible to live in a city center at an affordable rate within walking distance to groceries, restaurants and activities.
- wepple 2y ago
  Taught or forced? That’s ridiculous. My kids like to play in our yard. I do woodwork as a hobby. My neighbors spend summer by their pool. I like my privacy. I like quiet and space. I like strong community. I spent 15 years apartment living all over the world, and couldn’t be happier moving to the suburbs.
  - rwyinuse 2y ago
    I agree. I wouldn't move to city center no matter how affordable or cheap it was. Living in an apartment block severely limits the way I can spend my free time compared to an actual house with a yard.

avidphantasm 2y ago

I would like you to explain why you think the creation of infrastructure involves low-skill jobs.

qeternity 2y ago

> It feels like much like defense spending, it create jobs, but it doesn't create value. This is the safest period in human history by a huge margin. It may not feel that way given the ultra connected, headline consuming nature of most people these days. But it is true. Global trade has lifted more people out of poverty than anything else, and that was first enabled by maritime trade which was implicitly secured by the US Navy post WW2. The Internet is the second coming of that, the invention of which was a result of US military spending. You may think that US defense spending is too high, or take other faults with the US military industrial complex. But to say that it provides no value is uninformed.

PittleyDunkin 2y ago
It certainly provides value—mostly the internationally wealthy. Certainly not to the people footing the bill, who are largely restricted from accessing the windfalls of these profits.
phtrivier 2y ago
> This is the safest period in human history by a huge margin. There has been almost ten times more victims of conflict in 2023 as in 2005. [1] And, as you said, we are now a bit more aware of those deaths (although I suspect a large amount occurred in conflicts that don't make western news headlines.) The number of victims might pale against WWII, of course - but we're slowly arriving at time where WWII is not only "last century", but a "century ago". I don't think anyone compared the figures of the Vietnam War of the 1960s to the US civil war of 1860s. Or did they ? Anyway, in the average life span of an average human being with a normal memory, this is more likely to be one of the _worst_ period. [1] https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/deaths-in-armed-conflicts-by-type https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/deaths-in-armed-conflicts...
- qeternity 2y ago
  > There has been almost ten times more victims of conflict in 2023 as in 2005. You're talking about an 18 year period...do you know how long human history is? > average life span of an average human being with a normal memory I think you entirely missed the point of my comment, which is this: it feels more dangerous. But it isn't.

jaco6 2y ago

Sewage, heating, and power plants are included in GDP figures. Government spending is a GDP subheading. And such things certainly create value. I derive significant value every day from my warm, insulated, suburban bathroom. Furthermore, your assertion that the defense industry doesn’t provide value is questionable. Until you can convince the various state governments of the world to unite in a global superstate, defense spending is a necessary deterrent to invasion and exploitation by other states, so it is, in fact, valuable. And while I agree that suburbs aren’t the ideal form of urban organization, they aren’t actually the cause of all the social ills that you imagine them to be. Depression and addiction are driven by loneliness, and loneliness is almost as high in urban societies as suburban ones. Obesity may be slightly aggravated by car dependence, but it is still historically high and a major problem in the walking/public transport countries of Europe. So no, the demon of suburban car dependence does not provide the explanation for all ills.

drsim 2y ago
> Obesity may be slightly aggravated by car dependence, but it is still historically high and a major problem in the walking/public transport countries of Europe. I’d like to learn more about this. That hasn’t been my personal experience at all. Looking at the national level is challenging, as urban and suburban and income levels must be a strong factor.
DanielHB 2y ago
I haven't phrased it very well, I meant to say _american_ style suburbs are very... wasteful on resources, land and capital. European cities have suburbs as well, they are just usually 4-6 store tall buildings close to metro stations with row-houses and detached houses a bit farther out. Detached houses are not the main means of living for most people in Europe, but if you want one you can still get one, it just costs more than an apartment (especially in colder countries).
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- syrjir 2y ago

dmschulman 2y ago

hmm what could have happened in the last 3-4 years that would impact US life expectancy? also a huge part of that decline is preventable death due to drug overdose.