9 ms·

Honest question: As an app builder, why would you use this instead of facebook? Many more users are going to have Facebook logins already, and it provides soci

by hinting 14y ago

Honest question: As an app builder, why would you use this instead of facebook? Many more users are going to have Facebook logins already, and it provides social information that may be useful to your app. (Hoping to hear answers other than the dev-centric 'I don't like facebook')

cleverjake 14y ago
well, my first guess is more people have web browsers than have a facebook account. if this can be standardized and propagated throughout all major clients, the user base would be much larger.
thristian 14y ago
One good reason: If Facebook goes broke, or decides to stop offering their authentication service, or anything like that, your user database is now filled with useless Facebook user IDs. If Mozilla's Persona system goes broke or gets taken offline, your user database is now filled with perfectly good, validated email addresses, so you can still contact your users and/or match up new registrations with existing accounts.
- immad 14y ago
  If you ask for the permission Facebook will give you the users email address. You can additionally just ask for the users email address. Any one building a serious business using facebook auth does one of the above.
  - tg3 14y ago
    IIRC email is one of the few pieces of information about users that you get by default, and cannot be revoked by the user (without revoking the app entirely)
    - patja 14y ago
      Incorrect. You must request and obtain the extended permission 'email' in order to retrieve the user's email address from Facebook.
  - JBiserkov 14y ago
    >If you ask for the permission Facebook will give you the users email address. us3r-1D@facebook.com - that's helpful :)
moxie 14y ago
Exactly, and I think it's possible that Mozilla just doesn't understand this. Webapps aren't attracted to identity providers because they want to avoid managing a user table in their database, but because existing identity providers like Facebook provide a set of "social" APIs that can support the webapp. I can't see why a site would be drawn to BrowserID instead.
- drumdance 14y ago
  One other benefit is it lowers the friction to signup.
- callahad 14y ago
  > I can't see why a site would be drawn to BrowserID instead. There's more to Persona than liberating you from your password column. Nevertheless, there are still huge classes of applications that don't benefit from social features, but do want the improved experience that Persona can offer. Think banks, universities, corporations, and governments. So even in the absolute worst case versus Facebook Connect, we still have enormous potential for alleviating the pain of per-site passwords and containing the damage from security breaches in day to day life.
PuerkitoBio 14y ago
I can see a website offering only Persona/BrowserId, as it doesn't force you to create an account with a "commercial" website. If you go with Facebook for login, you have to offer an alternative because if a user doesn't have a fb account, it has way more implications to open a fb account than to create a browserid account. I just hope Mozilla don't overgrow it into something more than a simple auth system (like building a social network around it!).
patja 14y ago
I don't think "I don't like Facebook" is limited to dev-centric populations. I know people who have nothing to do with software development who refuse to get Facebook accounts. And then there are the folks who use Facebook but refuse the install any apps (about half of my Facebook friends fall into this category). You need to offer something other than Facebook auth if you care about having the broadest reach possible. This Mozilla persona thing has a pretty intuitive workflow for signing up with any email address.
- billposters55 14y ago
  Exactly. Facebook isn't universally trusted and liked even by Facebook users, especially across external functions such as commenting on websites. Outside of Facebook, people often avoid signing in to post comments on websites. Often the comments we want to write on websites have absolutely no business being concurrently posted back to FB. People like contributing without disclosing or offering their FB identities or sharing every micro-activity. And fair enough. Not everyone is comfortable with fronting up to an unfamiliar website and saying "hi, I'm John Smith. Here's my comment about religious persecution in South Asia. And don't forget to Like me on Facebook. Sign up now to connect and share with the people in you life"... In other words, the less clunky FB social plugin mess on websites the better. I hope Persona goes well.
azakai 14y ago
> Honest question: As an app builder, why would you use this instead of facebook? You should use both, to maximize the convenience of your users. Some are always signed into Facebook, and like to just use that, others want other methods that offer different models of security and openness, Persona is the best of those I would argue (OpenID is nice too, but the lack of native browser integration is what makes it less impressive than Persona).
SwellJoe 14y ago
I have a facebook account, but I don't trust them enough to allow them to know anything about me except what I intentionally put on facebook. Thus, I don't use products that require me to authenticate with facebook. I will, however, authenticate with Google or a password. And, I would use Persona. I'm simply not trusting facebook under any circumstances. I'm in the minority, I know. But, if you want my money, or my time, on your web app (and maybe you don't; maybe you want people who have low desire for privacy or security, since they're probably more likely to click on ads), you're gonna have to offer something other than facebook for logging in.

by hinting 14y ago

cleverjake 14y ago

well, my first guess is more people have web browsers than have a facebook account. if this can be standardized and propagated throughout all major clients, the user base would be much larger.

thristian 14y ago

One good reason: If Facebook goes broke, or decides to stop offering their authentication service, or anything like that, your user database is now filled with useless Facebook user IDs. If Mozilla's Persona system goes broke or gets taken offline, your user database is now filled with perfectly good, validated email addresses, so you can still contact your users and/or match up new registrations with existing accounts.

immad 14y ago
If you ask for the permission Facebook will give you the users email address. You can additionally just ask for the users email address. Any one building a serious business using facebook auth does one of the above.
- tg3 14y ago
  IIRC email is one of the few pieces of information about users that you get by default, and cannot be revoked by the user (without revoking the app entirely)
  - patja 14y ago
    Incorrect. You must request and obtain the extended permission 'email' in order to retrieve the user's email address from Facebook.
- JBiserkov 14y ago
  >If you ask for the permission Facebook will give you the users email address. us3r-1D@facebook.com - that's helpful :)

moxie 14y ago

Exactly, and I think it's possible that Mozilla just doesn't understand this. Webapps aren't attracted to identity providers because they want to avoid managing a user table in their database, but because existing identity providers like Facebook provide a set of "social" APIs that can support the webapp. I can't see why a site would be drawn to BrowserID instead.

drumdance 14y ago
One other benefit is it lowers the friction to signup.
callahad 14y ago
> I can't see why a site would be drawn to BrowserID instead. There's more to Persona than liberating you from your password column. Nevertheless, there are still huge classes of applications that don't benefit from social features, but do want the improved experience that Persona can offer. Think banks, universities, corporations, and governments. So even in the absolute worst case versus Facebook Connect, we still have enormous potential for alleviating the pain of per-site passwords and containing the damage from security breaches in day to day life.

PuerkitoBio 14y ago

I can see a website offering only Persona/BrowserId, as it doesn't force you to create an account with a "commercial" website. If you go with Facebook for login, you have to offer an alternative because if a user doesn't have a fb account, it has way more implications to open a fb account than to create a browserid account. I just hope Mozilla don't overgrow it into something more than a simple auth system (like building a social network around it!).

patja 14y ago

I don't think "I don't like Facebook" is limited to dev-centric populations. I know people who have nothing to do with software development who refuse to get Facebook accounts. And then there are the folks who use Facebook but refuse the install any apps (about half of my Facebook friends fall into this category). You need to offer something other than Facebook auth if you care about having the broadest reach possible. This Mozilla persona thing has a pretty intuitive workflow for signing up with any email address.

billposters55 14y ago
Exactly. Facebook isn't universally trusted and liked even by Facebook users, especially across external functions such as commenting on websites. Outside of Facebook, people often avoid signing in to post comments on websites. Often the comments we want to write on websites have absolutely no business being concurrently posted back to FB. People like contributing without disclosing or offering their FB identities or sharing every micro-activity. And fair enough. Not everyone is comfortable with fronting up to an unfamiliar website and saying "hi, I'm John Smith. Here's my comment about religious persecution in South Asia. And don't forget to Like me on Facebook. Sign up now to connect and share with the people in you life"... In other words, the less clunky FB social plugin mess on websites the better. I hope Persona goes well.

azakai 14y ago

> Honest question: As an app builder, why would you use this instead of facebook? You should use both, to maximize the convenience of your users. Some are always signed into Facebook, and like to just use that, others want other methods that offer different models of security and openness, Persona is the best of those I would argue (OpenID is nice too, but the lack of native browser integration is what makes it less impressive than Persona).

SwellJoe 14y ago

I have a facebook account, but I don't trust them enough to allow them to know anything about me except what I intentionally put on facebook. Thus, I don't use products that require me to authenticate with facebook. I will, however, authenticate with Google or a password. And, I would use Persona. I'm simply not trusting facebook under any circumstances. I'm in the minority, I know. But, if you want my money, or my time, on your web app (and maybe you don't; maybe you want people who have low desire for privacy or security, since they're probably more likely to click on ads), you're gonna have to offer something other than facebook for logging in.