6 ms·

the eu quality of life has a higher minimum but a far lower median

barbazoo 2y ago
source?
s1artibartfast 2y ago
It can't be overstated how much of this is cultural. Quality of life is simply less materialistically driven in Europe. If Americans give up on home ownership and luxury items, they too can enjoy a European quality of life; living in an 800sqft rental and enjoying a rich social life.
- voidfunc 2y ago
  Do people honestly think Americans don't have rich social lives? Just because we socialize differently doesn't mean it isn't rich. Most Americans seem to prefer church groups, and small friend and family gatherings at their homes rather than going out and mingling in urban entertainment districts and bars.
  - lolinder 2y ago
    Europeans get most of their perspective on US social living conditions from the terminally online, who are disproportionately likely to have no social life. The average American living in, say, the Midwest doesn't show up in the anecdotes that stereotypes are built around.
  - tomtheelder 2y ago
    I'm an American and it definitely seems like we are in a significant and worsening loneliness crisis. I have no idea to what degree any of it is unique to Americans. Social connectedness, socialization rates, and companionship have all been declining for quite a while now. Lot's of potential causes and theories about it. [1] is a decent overview. Like personally I'm doing great, and so are a lot of people I know, and I'm sure you as well. But I think a lot of Americans are struggling badly with their social lives. [1] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9811250/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9811250/
    - ravetcofx 2y ago
      #1 Reason is likely the urban fabric of places being non-walkable & car dependent. It's a physical structure that doesn't lead itself to spontaneity and new connections.
      - lolinder 2y ago
        That doesn't make any sense as an explanation for rising rates of loneliness. The US isn't more car dependent today than it was 10 years ago.
        jmoak 2y ago
        I recommend reading Robert Putnam's Bowling Alone (2000). American civic and social engagement has been declining in almost every measurable way for 50 years now. There is no way to deny this. The largest contributor according the book's surveys and studies (and I love saying this) is television outcompeting in-person fun. Car dependency is a factor, but IIRC was factor #2 or #3. While this ranking was true at the time of publication, I would wager that time spent on "screens" is likely factor #1, #2, and #3 now. Please read the version with the 20 year update: https://www.amazon.com/Bowling-Alone-Collapse-American-Community/dp/1982130849?crid=1KS752K9YOGHH&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.3_V0Z2C2jjDjJqU_u4S1EE7R8C30VgI1g8jOcPYUeV8sF9CqbJIaqie7hpkanC0xMv4E5w2jJGT4ykTioIBMb_r0YwVLNVwUNC8NUdG37uO4VHT5PxWdJe3Bk7UnhkYQwAls7vdr9zMiqokOU9Oun-fdSSpi7BFtRTAjR7_b_7pUOw2Ioi2OUdGknWqe0lKHxZGUZkcPipcTadzznJ3k7SL6aX3INu2C4UUhNudrJqE.CDsAdeBY_0AVDU23tgPVwqTWhY-_hnMZQaWd8xS6kGk&dib_tag=se&keywords=bowling+alone&qid=1733363142&s=books&sprefix=bowling+alon%2Cstripbooks%2C123&sr=1-1 https://www.amazon.com/Bowling-Alone-Collapse-American-Commu... I would wager that many people are fleeing their hometowns to socialize in cities not because they're walkable, but because the density of people increases, allowing you to have better odds meeting real humans who haven't been lost to the allure of the indoors.
        s1artibartfast 2y ago
        The average American watches 4 hours of television a day, and I don't think that includes cell phone web scrolling. I don't think you can have a realistic conversation about American physical or mental health without centering this fact
  - kmoser 2y ago
    I'm not sure that's a correct characterization of Americans' social lives. Many, many Americans, especially young ones, go bar hopping.
  - amrocha 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - lolinder 2y ago
      That's a very convenient way to frame it! You can't possibly be wrong because every counterexample is obviously either unwilling or brainwashed.
      - amrocha 2y ago
        It’s just an acknowledgement of the spread of cults in the US. Just look at Utah.
- addicted 2y ago
  https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/americans-are-lonelier-than-europeans-in-middle-age/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/americans-are-lon... Americans are much lonelier than their European counterparts. In addition, lifespans in the U.S. are declining even post COVID relative to their European counterparts, largely due to increases in “deaths of despair” (drugs, suicides, etc). The idea that Americans have a “rich social life” is not true relative to Europeans. Even the church going etc. is for most people forced upon them as opposed to something they want to do, as evidenced by the increasing number of people saying they’re faithless but onto church anyways. That doesn’t mean that people with rich social lives don’t exist or even that the lack of such a rich social life is a problem for a majority of people. What it means is that the U.S. broadly isn’t doing as well as Europeans and further things are getting worse.
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    my point was the opposite, that Europeans have rich social lives, and this is responsible for their quality of life, despite fewer material luxuries. This is the cultural aspect.
    - bdangubic 2y ago
      this is true but less and less so… I am European living in the US for the last 30+ years. spend my summers in europe and noticing each and every year that this culture is slowly dying. playgrounds where hoards of kids used to be are mostly deserted, mobiles and social media are slowly taking over the lives of europeans too. this may be difficult to see if you are not looking hard cause european cities get A LOT more tourists than US cities (tourists are on their phones too :) )
      - s1artibartfast 2y ago
        I have no doubt that materialism and consumerism is eroding social life in Europe too. My point is primarily that the US is way ahead of the curve on this, and it explains much of the difference. I have a lot of friends who went the opposite direction of you, and chose a cheaper but more fulfilling life in Europe. Instead of making 200k a year in the us, they make modest salaries and rent 100-year-old farmhouse flats that Americans would call a slum. They drive economy cars and spend their ample time socializing or outdoors. My personal opinion is that Europeans simply place a higher priority on social interaction and incorporate it into their daily lives. Many of them have more modest financial aspirations, and don't expect to ever own a house, vacation property, or boat.
- amrocha 2y ago
  This lifestyle is literally impossible in most US cities unless you’re a high income earner.
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    No, it is trivial to spend an afternoon with friends or go for a walk.
    - amrocha 2y ago
      Go for a walk where? On the side of the stroad? With your friends who live 10Km away and have to drive to meet you because there's no public transport?
      - s1artibartfast 2y ago
        Sure, why not? My take is that Americans like to make infrastructure an excuse for everything when it really boils down to priorities and preferences. 10 km is a 20 minute bike ride if you're not too obese to fit on one. 10 minutes if you pick a coffee shop, pup, or Park that is halfway. Unfortunately, most people prefer Netflix and the fridge which is even closer
        amrocha 2y ago
        I don’t think you’ve ever biked in a city if you think 10km is 20 minutes
        hapara2024 2y ago
        >10km is a 20 minutes e-bike ? otherwise you have to be riding race type bike with really good dedicated bike lane
    - bdangubic 2y ago
      in 89.65% ‘going for a walk’ is not possible unless you want to walk in circles around your house 76km away from the first tree/park/coffee house… you may though go for a drive in a pickup :)
econ40432 2y ago
EU homes are generally tiny. Homes in Mississippi for example are huge compared to EU homes
- kazen44 2y ago
  hasn't this always been the case? most european land and cities has been densly populated for centuries. Also, a lot of american homes seem to need space for luxuries which are simply weird for many europeans. A bathroom per bedroom for instance? Why not share a bathroom with the entire household,and have a seperate small toilet instead? American kitchens also seem really large compared to most european one's i have seen, but they also seem to have a more social function then what kitchens are used for normally. (preparing food)
  - carlosjobim 2y ago
    > Why not share a bathroom with the entire household,and have a seperate small toilet instead? Why would you if you don't have to? It's great to have space.

source?

It can't be overstated how much of this is cultural. Quality of life is simply less materialistically driven in Europe. If Americans give up on home ownership and luxury items, they too can enjoy a European quality of life; living in an 800sqft rental and enjoying a rich social life.

voidfunc 2y ago
Do people honestly think Americans don't have rich social lives? Just because we socialize differently doesn't mean it isn't rich. Most Americans seem to prefer church groups, and small friend and family gatherings at their homes rather than going out and mingling in urban entertainment districts and bars.
- lolinder 2y ago
  Europeans get most of their perspective on US social living conditions from the terminally online, who are disproportionately likely to have no social life. The average American living in, say, the Midwest doesn't show up in the anecdotes that stereotypes are built around.
- tomtheelder 2y ago
  I'm an American and it definitely seems like we are in a significant and worsening loneliness crisis. I have no idea to what degree any of it is unique to Americans. Social connectedness, socialization rates, and companionship have all been declining for quite a while now. Lot's of potential causes and theories about it. [1] is a decent overview. Like personally I'm doing great, and so are a lot of people I know, and I'm sure you as well. But I think a lot of Americans are struggling badly with their social lives. [1] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9811250/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9811250/
  - ravetcofx 2y ago
    #1 Reason is likely the urban fabric of places being non-walkable & car dependent. It's a physical structure that doesn't lead itself to spontaneity and new connections.
    - lolinder 2y ago
      That doesn't make any sense as an explanation for rising rates of loneliness. The US isn't more car dependent today than it was 10 years ago.
      - jmoak 2y ago
        I recommend reading Robert Putnam's Bowling Alone (2000). American civic and social engagement has been declining in almost every measurable way for 50 years now. There is no way to deny this. The largest contributor according the book's surveys and studies (and I love saying this) is television outcompeting in-person fun. Car dependency is a factor, but IIRC was factor #2 or #3. While this ranking was true at the time of publication, I would wager that time spent on "screens" is likely factor #1, #2, and #3 now. Please read the version with the 20 year update: https://www.amazon.com/Bowling-Alone-Collapse-American-Community/dp/1982130849?crid=1KS752K9YOGHH&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.3_V0Z2C2jjDjJqU_u4S1EE7R8C30VgI1g8jOcPYUeV8sF9CqbJIaqie7hpkanC0xMv4E5w2jJGT4ykTioIBMb_r0YwVLNVwUNC8NUdG37uO4VHT5PxWdJe3Bk7UnhkYQwAls7vdr9zMiqokOU9Oun-fdSSpi7BFtRTAjR7_b_7pUOw2Ioi2OUdGknWqe0lKHxZGUZkcPipcTadzznJ3k7SL6aX3INu2C4UUhNudrJqE.CDsAdeBY_0AVDU23tgPVwqTWhY-_hnMZQaWd8xS6kGk&dib_tag=se&keywords=bowling+alone&qid=1733363142&s=books&sprefix=bowling+alon%2Cstripbooks%2C123&sr=1-1 https://www.amazon.com/Bowling-Alone-Collapse-American-Commu... I would wager that many people are fleeing their hometowns to socialize in cities not because they're walkable, but because the density of people increases, allowing you to have better odds meeting real humans who haven't been lost to the allure of the indoors.
        s1artibartfast 2y ago
        The average American watches 4 hours of television a day, and I don't think that includes cell phone web scrolling. I don't think you can have a realistic conversation about American physical or mental health without centering this fact
- kmoser 2y ago
  I'm not sure that's a correct characterization of Americans' social lives. Many, many Americans, especially young ones, go bar hopping.
- amrocha 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - lolinder 2y ago
    That's a very convenient way to frame it! You can't possibly be wrong because every counterexample is obviously either unwilling or brainwashed.
    - amrocha 2y ago
      It’s just an acknowledgement of the spread of cults in the US. Just look at Utah.
addicted 2y ago
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/americans-are-lonelier-than-europeans-in-middle-age/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/americans-are-lon... Americans are much lonelier than their European counterparts. In addition, lifespans in the U.S. are declining even post COVID relative to their European counterparts, largely due to increases in “deaths of despair” (drugs, suicides, etc). The idea that Americans have a “rich social life” is not true relative to Europeans. Even the church going etc. is for most people forced upon them as opposed to something they want to do, as evidenced by the increasing number of people saying they’re faithless but onto church anyways. That doesn’t mean that people with rich social lives don’t exist or even that the lack of such a rich social life is a problem for a majority of people. What it means is that the U.S. broadly isn’t doing as well as Europeans and further things are getting worse.
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  my point was the opposite, that Europeans have rich social lives, and this is responsible for their quality of life, despite fewer material luxuries. This is the cultural aspect.
  - bdangubic 2y ago
    this is true but less and less so… I am European living in the US for the last 30+ years. spend my summers in europe and noticing each and every year that this culture is slowly dying. playgrounds where hoards of kids used to be are mostly deserted, mobiles and social media are slowly taking over the lives of europeans too. this may be difficult to see if you are not looking hard cause european cities get A LOT more tourists than US cities (tourists are on their phones too :) )
    - s1artibartfast 2y ago
      I have no doubt that materialism and consumerism is eroding social life in Europe too. My point is primarily that the US is way ahead of the curve on this, and it explains much of the difference. I have a lot of friends who went the opposite direction of you, and chose a cheaper but more fulfilling life in Europe. Instead of making 200k a year in the us, they make modest salaries and rent 100-year-old farmhouse flats that Americans would call a slum. They drive economy cars and spend their ample time socializing or outdoors. My personal opinion is that Europeans simply place a higher priority on social interaction and incorporate it into their daily lives. Many of them have more modest financial aspirations, and don't expect to ever own a house, vacation property, or boat.
amrocha 2y ago
This lifestyle is literally impossible in most US cities unless you’re a high income earner.
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  No, it is trivial to spend an afternoon with friends or go for a walk.
  - amrocha 2y ago
    Go for a walk where? On the side of the stroad? With your friends who live 10Km away and have to drive to meet you because there's no public transport?
    - s1artibartfast 2y ago
      Sure, why not? My take is that Americans like to make infrastructure an excuse for everything when it really boils down to priorities and preferences. 10 km is a 20 minute bike ride if you're not too obese to fit on one. 10 minutes if you pick a coffee shop, pup, or Park that is halfway. Unfortunately, most people prefer Netflix and the fridge which is even closer
      - amrocha 2y ago
        I don’t think you’ve ever biked in a city if you think 10km is 20 minutes
      - hapara2024 2y ago
        >10km is a 20 minutes e-bike ? otherwise you have to be riding race type bike with really good dedicated bike lane
  - bdangubic 2y ago
    in 89.65% ‘going for a walk’ is not possible unless you want to walk in circles around your house 76km away from the first tree/park/coffee house… you may though go for a drive in a pickup :)

econ40432 2y ago

EU homes are generally tiny. Homes in Mississippi for example are huge compared to EU homes

kazen44 2y ago
hasn't this always been the case? most european land and cities has been densly populated for centuries. Also, a lot of american homes seem to need space for luxuries which are simply weird for many europeans. A bathroom per bedroom for instance? Why not share a bathroom with the entire household,and have a seperate small toilet instead? American kitchens also seem really large compared to most european one's i have seen, but they also seem to have a more social function then what kitchens are used for normally. (preparing food)
- carlosjobim 2y ago
  > Why not share a bathroom with the entire household,and have a seperate small toilet instead? Why would you if you don't have to? It's great to have space.