6 ms·

Given the description in the article, I'd say Cynic/Idealist instead of Grifter/Believer.

by syntheticnature 2y ago

gchamonlive 2y ago
Or maybe even loyalist/idealist to purge any hint of negativity from the first category
- __MatrixMan__ 2y ago
  Does it? Loyalty is for henchmen. You only need it if you have a habit of asking people to do something slimy.
  - gchamonlive 2y ago
    Could be but > They respect the company mission as written, but what they really value is what the leaders of the company show they care about. > Grifters aren’t very good at changing the culture of their organizations. They tend to go with the current instead. To me loyalist fits this well, not because they are necessarily going to do dirty work, but because they are loyal to the rules that are in place.
    - __MatrixMan__ 2y ago
      No you're right, it's a better label. I just am too much of a believer/anarchist to see loyalty as any better than grift. A grifter does their own evil, a loyalist does someone else's. I'm not sure which is more repugnant but I'm sure that my view on this is quite biased. I guess that makes me the target audience re: > this article is really aimed at people who are trying to have a bit more empathy for the assholes they work with
      - gchamonlive 2y ago
        This discussion would benefit a lot from The Banality of Evil, but I'm definitely not the best one to introduce it. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eichmann_in_Jerusalem https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eichmann_in_Jerusalem But I think it would very much argue in favor of people being on average more like loyalists. Just regular Joes trying to get a promotion and causing untold damage in the process.
        __MatrixMan__ 2y ago
        I had heard the phrase, but didn't know where it came from. Based on the wiki, I think I'm inclined to agree with the author. Do you recommend it? I could use something a bit less abstract than my typical fare...
        gchamonlive 2y ago
        I didn't read the book, that's above my paygrade. But a good introduction would be the episode on Philosophize This about the author
  - lazide 2y ago
    Or you have work that sometimes is unpleasant (but necessary!) and having people jump ship at the slightest provocation gets old.
    - __MatrixMan__ 2y ago
      I do unpleasant work all the time, I do it because I believe it's necessary. The fact that my boss also believes it is necessary is convenient. This has lead to an average job length of about 3yr (max: 7), so I don't think it's leading me to be overly flighty. Every resignation has been a bit of a manifesto though, so it's not like everything is perfectly normal, but it works out well enough.
- dowager_dan99 2y ago
  go back to the very start; the perspective is supposed to be the assholes you identify in each category where you don't see yourself. By definition it should be negative, and this should feel uncomfortable because you don't want to view yourself in the same light. The fact there's so much debate implies they nailed the labels.
  - gchamonlive 2y ago
    > the perspective is supposed to be the assholes you identify in each category where you don't see yourself There is literally a "Me" in the graph. This gives me a little Zizekian vibes, where it's intentionally trying to confuse and shock in order to shift your perspective without you even realising it. I like it. The relabeling is just another form of understanding by interacting.
throw646577 2y ago
I think Realist more than Cynic, maybe. Because the activities in that description are perhaps realistically transactional, not cynical. I dunno. The whole thing is wobbly really.
indoordin0saur 2y ago
I think this is great. I've certainly had companies where I believed in the mission and others where I was just doing the work to help along the project or advance my own career experience. But I wasn't ever there to deceive people or fraudulently misrepresent myself.

Given the description in the article, I'd say Cynic/Idealist instead of Grifter/Believer.

gchamonlive 2y ago

Or maybe even loyalist/idealist to purge any hint of negativity from the first category

__MatrixMan__ 2y ago
Does it? Loyalty is for henchmen. You only need it if you have a habit of asking people to do something slimy.
- gchamonlive 2y ago
  Could be but > They respect the company mission as written, but what they really value is what the leaders of the company show they care about. > Grifters aren’t very good at changing the culture of their organizations. They tend to go with the current instead. To me loyalist fits this well, not because they are necessarily going to do dirty work, but because they are loyal to the rules that are in place.
  - __MatrixMan__ 2y ago
    No you're right, it's a better label. I just am too much of a believer/anarchist to see loyalty as any better than grift. A grifter does their own evil, a loyalist does someone else's. I'm not sure which is more repugnant but I'm sure that my view on this is quite biased. I guess that makes me the target audience re: > this article is really aimed at people who are trying to have a bit more empathy for the assholes they work with
    - gchamonlive 2y ago
      This discussion would benefit a lot from The Banality of Evil, but I'm definitely not the best one to introduce it. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eichmann_in_Jerusalem https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eichmann_in_Jerusalem But I think it would very much argue in favor of people being on average more like loyalists. Just regular Joes trying to get a promotion and causing untold damage in the process.
      - __MatrixMan__ 2y ago
        I had heard the phrase, but didn't know where it came from. Based on the wiki, I think I'm inclined to agree with the author. Do you recommend it? I could use something a bit less abstract than my typical fare...
        gchamonlive 2y ago
        I didn't read the book, that's above my paygrade. But a good introduction would be the episode on Philosophize This about the author
- lazide 2y ago
  Or you have work that sometimes is unpleasant (but necessary!) and having people jump ship at the slightest provocation gets old.
  - __MatrixMan__ 2y ago
    I do unpleasant work all the time, I do it because I believe it's necessary. The fact that my boss also believes it is necessary is convenient. This has lead to an average job length of about 3yr (max: 7), so I don't think it's leading me to be overly flighty. Every resignation has been a bit of a manifesto though, so it's not like everything is perfectly normal, but it works out well enough.
dowager_dan99 2y ago
go back to the very start; the perspective is supposed to be the assholes you identify in each category where you don't see yourself. By definition it should be negative, and this should feel uncomfortable because you don't want to view yourself in the same light. The fact there's so much debate implies they nailed the labels.
- gchamonlive 2y ago
  > the perspective is supposed to be the assholes you identify in each category where you don't see yourself There is literally a "Me" in the graph. This gives me a little Zizekian vibes, where it's intentionally trying to confuse and shock in order to shift your perspective without you even realising it. I like it. The relabeling is just another form of understanding by interacting.

throw646577 2y ago

I think Realist more than Cynic, maybe. Because the activities in that description are perhaps realistically transactional, not cynical. I dunno. The whole thing is wobbly really.

indoordin0saur 2y ago

I think this is great. I've certainly had companies where I believed in the mission and others where I was just doing the work to help along the project or advance my own career experience. But I wasn't ever there to deceive people or fraudulently misrepresent myself.