4 ms·

The concept of literacy itself means more than "able to read." (aka alphabetical literacy meaning word and letter recognition). Literacy is the ability to use p

by nabla9 2y ago

The concept of literacy itself means more than "able to read." (aka alphabetical literacy meaning word and letter recognition). Literacy is the ability to use printed and written information to function in society, to achieve one's goals, and to develop one's knowledge and potential. International Assessment of Adult Competencies (PIAAC) has five levels. Only 50% of U.S. adults age 16 to 65 are level 3 or above. Level 3: >Texts at this level are often dense or lengthy and include continuous, noncontinuous, mixed, or multiple pages of text. Understanding text and rhetorical structures becomes more central to successfully completing tasks, especially navigating complex digital texts. Tasks require the respondent to identify, interpret, or evaluate one or more pieces of information and often require varying levels of inference. Many tasks require the respondent to construct meaning across larger chunks of text or perform multi-step operations in order to identify and formulate responses. Often, tasks also demand that the respondent disregard irrelevant or inappropriate content to answer accurately. Competing information is often present, but it is not more prominent than the correct information.

vundercind 2y ago
I've come to think that a good chunk of the resistance to written-word-heavy remote work, and to the phenomenon of "let's just hop on a quick call" where the alternative was pretty likely to be a much quicker IM exchange, is due to this exact thing—not just that a lot of people can't read at that level-3 proficiency, but that another cohort can, but finds that the absolute limit of their ability and quite taxing, leaving well more than half of the population uncomfortable in a professional reading- and writing-heavy environment, if not wholly incapable of working in it at all.
- yesco 2y ago
  To add another angle: in the past I've experienced issues where I'd always butt heads with a co-worker if we used a messenger, but would be fine when we talked over a call. I'm sure a higher reading comprehension from a certain someone could maybe have helped with that, but I suspect much of it just comes down to the fact that a lot of nuance/tone is lost when thoughts are put into writing, which makes it easier to offend people. At work, arguing with people is the last thing I want to deal with, so calls are sometimes the simplest way to cut through the bullshit.
  - vundercind 2y ago
    I think detecting or even being aware of register in writing is an also lot harder for some folks than the same thing is in speech, which can lead to problems similar and related to misreading tone. I'd classify that, and difficulty dealing with tone per se in writing, as at least in part also a reading comprehension problem, but ultimately it doesn't much matter the cause when your immediate task is to communicate with the person: your options are to write better for your audience of that person, or, yeah, switch medium to speech.
    - 1659447091 2y ago
      > I think detecting or even being aware of register in writing is an also lot harder for some folks than the same thing is in speech I think this is a large reason why forums and comment sections can get so out-of-hand. Add to that the growing online habit of using as few characters/words as possible to communicate; then there is emoji only communication--thinking if that's its own comprehension category, teenager/young adults would score much better (better than I would at least).
  - foxglacier 2y ago
    Writing so people don't misread-between-the-lines is a skill. I don't have it and I've experienced the same problems. But an LLM can fix that. Just write your message your normal way and tell it to rewrite it being thoughtful and respectful. Maybe add brief if it gets too carried away with floweriness.
    - hindsightbias 2y ago
      A friend was told his emails were too curt so he filters them to be socially cheerier and wordy. Completely out of character for him. Perhaps we should turn this around and every employee is categorized by whatever is most understandable by them. Then every inbound message is run through that filter. Work turns into having my bots talk to your bots.
      - foxglacier 2y ago
- bravetraveler 2y ago
  Literacy is certainly part of it... but several have suckered me into calls [that took an order of magnitude longer] simply by stating they didn't like to type. In the plainest terms: they'd rather waste our collective time to spare their individual effort. I don't mean in terms of bandwidth. "Real words" can indeed clear things up. I truly mean they didn't want to write one question, read the response, and carry on. Mirroring this mundane exchange to a call makes for laziness I only tolerate because of a paycheck. My pet theories/reasons include poor vision and passive-aggression. An extremely soft power play, forcing synchronous communication when it's truly unnecessary. Realistically I know they just want to bond... but I'm here to be paid/keep us profitable. We'll manage with some emotional distance, I promise. Trying to force things often has the opposite effect. I'm more friendly to those who don't appear to have ulterior motives!
  - saghm 2y ago
    This is the classic "this meeting could have been an email" phenomenon. As much as I do actually find doing a quick sync to sometimes be helpful (e.g. if a code review spawns a discussion that requires multiple round-trips and isn't resolved, moving the discussion to somewhere more immediate and then updating the thread with the resolution that was picked "offline" can help unblock things faster in some situations), I wholeheartedly agree that this is extremely frustrating to me. Despite often being super energetic and talkative, I'm someone who fits the definition of "introvert" that some people use where interacting with other people (besides my wife) requires spending mental energy, and I need at least a few hours a day to "recharge" away from even family and friends to not get overwhelmed and exhausted, even if it's just retiring to my room a bit earlier when on a trip to visit family and just hanging out for a bit on my laptop it whatever. Because of this, I can't help but resent when someone else squanders some of my "social interaction quota" for the day even when they probably don't realize that's what they're doing. I'm incredibly lucky that my wife feels the same way as me, and we're so in tune with each other that we can spend unlimited time together without ever feeling spent in the same way, but it's always a mix of amusing and frustrating to me when her family doesn't seem to understand this the same way that we do. I absolutely adore my wife's mother, and she's been nothing but good to me since I started dating my wife, but she loves to text my wife and say something like "can you call me when you get a chance?", only for the reason she wanted to talk to turn it to be asking something extremely straightforward like "is it okay if we don't have cornbread for Thanksgiving this year?" Fortunately, my wife is a saint compared to me in terms of patience, and we love her mother enough that indulging this sort of thing is far more worthwhile than if it were happening from a coworker even if I'm usually friendly with then.
- plantwallshoe 2y ago
  I think it’s more about having to write all that information down for someone else to read is a lot more difficult than just speaking and having a conversation
- RandomThoughts3 2y ago
  I have seen more long winded IM exchanges becoming long winded emails exchange where more and more people fail to understand each other that should have been a quick call than the reverse. A call gives you a lot more contextual clue than text. A lot.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
justinclift 2y ago
Wonder if many of the people who'd "fail" at this level would instead be able to process and use Youtube (and similar) videos instead? If that's the case, then maybe the difference is less important these days than it once was?
- paulryanrogers 2y ago
  In my limited experience with friends and family, YT is more likely to lead them into extreme and unfounded conspiracies and then lock them into that engagement bubble. They become lazy and magical thinkers, and worse people. Exceptions like Khan Academy are still out there. But I think they're being drown out. Meanwhile I settled into text based communities which challenged my beliefs. And that lead me out of religion and all the fallacies I was indoctrinated into. YMMV
  - justinclift 2y ago
    Yeah, that's a good point. YT/TikTok/etc algorithm's often don't seem to lead people towards a path of success and happiness in life. :(
  - Capricorn2481 2y ago
    It's a broad generalization. Text based communities are not immune to this, or even less susceptible to it. There are very popular Youtubes that make very well made and information dense videos.

by nabla9 2y ago

vundercind 2y ago

I've come to think that a good chunk of the resistance to written-word-heavy remote work, and to the phenomenon of "let's just hop on a quick call" where the alternative was pretty likely to be a much quicker IM exchange, is due to this exact thing—not just that a lot of people can't read at that level-3 proficiency, but that another cohort can, but finds that the absolute limit of their ability and quite taxing, leaving well more than half of the population uncomfortable in a professional reading- and writing-heavy environment, if not wholly incapable of working in it at all.

yesco 2y ago
To add another angle: in the past I've experienced issues where I'd always butt heads with a co-worker if we used a messenger, but would be fine when we talked over a call. I'm sure a higher reading comprehension from a certain someone could maybe have helped with that, but I suspect much of it just comes down to the fact that a lot of nuance/tone is lost when thoughts are put into writing, which makes it easier to offend people. At work, arguing with people is the last thing I want to deal with, so calls are sometimes the simplest way to cut through the bullshit.
- vundercind 2y ago
  I think detecting or even being aware of register in writing is an also lot harder for some folks than the same thing is in speech, which can lead to problems similar and related to misreading tone. I'd classify that, and difficulty dealing with tone per se in writing, as at least in part also a reading comprehension problem, but ultimately it doesn't much matter the cause when your immediate task is to communicate with the person: your options are to write better for your audience of that person, or, yeah, switch medium to speech.
  - 1659447091 2y ago
    > I think detecting or even being aware of register in writing is an also lot harder for some folks than the same thing is in speech I think this is a large reason why forums and comment sections can get so out-of-hand. Add to that the growing online habit of using as few characters/words as possible to communicate; then there is emoji only communication--thinking if that's its own comprehension category, teenager/young adults would score much better (better than I would at least).
- foxglacier 2y ago
  Writing so people don't misread-between-the-lines is a skill. I don't have it and I've experienced the same problems. But an LLM can fix that. Just write your message your normal way and tell it to rewrite it being thoughtful and respectful. Maybe add brief if it gets too carried away with floweriness.
  - hindsightbias 2y ago
    A friend was told his emails were too curt so he filters them to be socially cheerier and wordy. Completely out of character for him. Perhaps we should turn this around and every employee is categorized by whatever is most understandable by them. Then every inbound message is run through that filter. Work turns into having my bots talk to your bots.
    - foxglacier 2y ago
bravetraveler 2y ago
Literacy is certainly part of it... but several have suckered me into calls [that took an order of magnitude longer] simply by stating they didn't like to type. In the plainest terms: they'd rather waste our collective time to spare their individual effort. I don't mean in terms of bandwidth. "Real words" can indeed clear things up. I truly mean they didn't want to write one question, read the response, and carry on. Mirroring this mundane exchange to a call makes for laziness I only tolerate because of a paycheck. My pet theories/reasons include poor vision and passive-aggression. An extremely soft power play, forcing synchronous communication when it's truly unnecessary. Realistically I know they just want to bond... but I'm here to be paid/keep us profitable. We'll manage with some emotional distance, I promise. Trying to force things often has the opposite effect. I'm more friendly to those who don't appear to have ulterior motives!
- saghm 2y ago
  This is the classic "this meeting could have been an email" phenomenon. As much as I do actually find doing a quick sync to sometimes be helpful (e.g. if a code review spawns a discussion that requires multiple round-trips and isn't resolved, moving the discussion to somewhere more immediate and then updating the thread with the resolution that was picked "offline" can help unblock things faster in some situations), I wholeheartedly agree that this is extremely frustrating to me. Despite often being super energetic and talkative, I'm someone who fits the definition of "introvert" that some people use where interacting with other people (besides my wife) requires spending mental energy, and I need at least a few hours a day to "recharge" away from even family and friends to not get overwhelmed and exhausted, even if it's just retiring to my room a bit earlier when on a trip to visit family and just hanging out for a bit on my laptop it whatever. Because of this, I can't help but resent when someone else squanders some of my "social interaction quota" for the day even when they probably don't realize that's what they're doing. I'm incredibly lucky that my wife feels the same way as me, and we're so in tune with each other that we can spend unlimited time together without ever feeling spent in the same way, but it's always a mix of amusing and frustrating to me when her family doesn't seem to understand this the same way that we do. I absolutely adore my wife's mother, and she's been nothing but good to me since I started dating my wife, but she loves to text my wife and say something like "can you call me when you get a chance?", only for the reason she wanted to talk to turn it to be asking something extremely straightforward like "is it okay if we don't have cornbread for Thanksgiving this year?" Fortunately, my wife is a saint compared to me in terms of patience, and we love her mother enough that indulging this sort of thing is far more worthwhile than if it were happening from a coworker even if I'm usually friendly with then.
plantwallshoe 2y ago
I think it’s more about having to write all that information down for someone else to read is a lot more difficult than just speaking and having a conversation
RandomThoughts3 2y ago
I have seen more long winded IM exchanges becoming long winded emails exchange where more and more people fail to understand each other that should have been a quick call than the reverse. A call gives you a lot more contextual clue than text. A lot.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

justinclift 2y ago

Wonder if many of the people who'd "fail" at this level would instead be able to process and use Youtube (and similar) videos instead? If that's the case, then maybe the difference is less important these days than it once was?

paulryanrogers 2y ago
In my limited experience with friends and family, YT is more likely to lead them into extreme and unfounded conspiracies and then lock them into that engagement bubble. They become lazy and magical thinkers, and worse people. Exceptions like Khan Academy are still out there. But I think they're being drown out. Meanwhile I settled into text based communities which challenged my beliefs. And that lead me out of religion and all the fallacies I was indoctrinated into. YMMV
- justinclift 2y ago
  Yeah, that's a good point. YT/TikTok/etc algorithm's often don't seem to lead people towards a path of success and happiness in life. :(
- Capricorn2481 2y ago
  It's a broad generalization. Text based communities are not immune to this, or even less susceptible to it. There are very popular Youtubes that make very well made and information dense videos.