3 ms·

Should it be considered 'proper' education if it leaves people illiterate?

sim7c00 2y ago
if they learn to solve real problems in the real world and it helps them, they are more educated than when they started, regardless of literacy rates.
- _6khi 2y ago
  Literacy is essential to living in society without getting scammed or taken advantage of. There's a scene in Betty Smith's "A Tree Grows in Brooklyn" that illustrates practical necessity of reading comprehension for the average person, where a grandmother tells a mother to save enough money over time and make sure the granddaughter can read. An excerpt follows: -- "Will it work, this saving?" "I swear by the Holy Mother it will." "Then why haven't you ever saved enough money to buy land?" "I did. When we first landed, I had a star bank. It took me ten years to save that first fifty dollars. I took the money in my hand and went to a man in the neighborhood of whom it was said that he dealt fairly with people who bought land. He showed me a beautiful piece of earth and told me in my own language; 'This is thine!' He took my money and gave me a paper. I could not read. Later, I saw men building the house of another on my land. I showed them my paper. They laughed at me with pity in their eyes. It was that the land had not been the man's to sell. It was ... how do you say it in the English ... a schwindle." "Swindle." "Ai. People like us, known as greenhorns from the old country, were often robbed by men such as he because we could not read. But you have education. First you will read on the paper that the land is yours. Only then will you pay." -- Yes, you can certainly be relatively more educated than you started by going to school, even if you are not literate by the end. But reading comprehension and literacy is a crucial skill that has practical value for living a better life.
  - 9rx 2y ago
    > that illustrates practical necessity of reading comprehension for the average person Does it? In practice, the average person, even the above average person, hell, even the greatest minds, will typically seek the services of a lawyer when buying land exactly because they lack the comprehension necessary to avoid the tale you tell. And once you are outsourcing comprehension, literacy doesn't really buy you anything.
    - redundantly 2y ago
      > The average person, even the above average person So, people who are likely to be literate will seek out assistance when they realise they don't understand something? One might wonder if their literacy has anything to do with that...
      - 9rx 2y ago
        Those who are illiterate, at least of those who could become literate, realize they don't understand something right from the get-go. It turns out they also typically seek the services of lawyers when buying land for the same reasons.
        redundantly 2y ago
        That’s a pretty rosy view of the world. If that were true, the 2008 housing crisis wouldn’t have been nearly as bad. People get taken advantage of all the time because they don’t understand what they’re signing—and society’s conditioned us to agree to whatever’s put in front of us, from cell phone contracts to software usage to major investments. Plus, lawyers aren’t everywhere, and they’re not cheap. Most people can’t afford to just hire one whenever they need help.
        9rx 2y ago
        > the 2008 housing crisis wouldn’t have been nearly as bad. I'm not sure I agree. Lawyers aren't rulers, only advisers. They can give you a perfect understanding of the situation, and if you are caught in a fear of missing out state, which was certainly the case for many leading up to that timeframe, it is likely you'll ignore their advice anyway. In fact, many US states legally require lawyer advisory before completing a real estate transaction. Those states certainly did not avoid the real estate bubble. > People get taken advantage of all the time because they don’t understand what they’re signing Absolutely. Being able to comprehend every situation is straight up impossible. Not even the greatest minds of our time are able to do that. Not even lawyers themselves, whose job is to comprehend written text, are able to comprehend every situation. They focus on narrow specialities for good reason. There is no avoiding that situation. If someone wants to take advantage of you, they'll find a way.
- pessimizer 2y ago
  > if they learn to solve real problems in the real world and it helps them We have less evidence of this than of improvements in literacy rates. At least in the US, no part of the curriculum has anything to do with general life skills other than driver's ed and math, and innumeracy is far more common than illiteracy.

if they learn to solve real problems in the real world and it helps them, they are more educated than when they started, regardless of literacy rates.

_6khi 2y ago
Literacy is essential to living in society without getting scammed or taken advantage of. There's a scene in Betty Smith's "A Tree Grows in Brooklyn" that illustrates practical necessity of reading comprehension for the average person, where a grandmother tells a mother to save enough money over time and make sure the granddaughter can read. An excerpt follows: -- "Will it work, this saving?" "I swear by the Holy Mother it will." "Then why haven't you ever saved enough money to buy land?" "I did. When we first landed, I had a star bank. It took me ten years to save that first fifty dollars. I took the money in my hand and went to a man in the neighborhood of whom it was said that he dealt fairly with people who bought land. He showed me a beautiful piece of earth and told me in my own language; 'This is thine!' He took my money and gave me a paper. I could not read. Later, I saw men building the house of another on my land. I showed them my paper. They laughed at me with pity in their eyes. It was that the land had not been the man's to sell. It was ... how do you say it in the English ... a schwindle." "Swindle." "Ai. People like us, known as greenhorns from the old country, were often robbed by men such as he because we could not read. But you have education. First you will read on the paper that the land is yours. Only then will you pay." -- Yes, you can certainly be relatively more educated than you started by going to school, even if you are not literate by the end. But reading comprehension and literacy is a crucial skill that has practical value for living a better life.
- 9rx 2y ago
  > that illustrates practical necessity of reading comprehension for the average person Does it? In practice, the average person, even the above average person, hell, even the greatest minds, will typically seek the services of a lawyer when buying land exactly because they lack the comprehension necessary to avoid the tale you tell. And once you are outsourcing comprehension, literacy doesn't really buy you anything.
  - redundantly 2y ago
    > The average person, even the above average person So, people who are likely to be literate will seek out assistance when they realise they don't understand something? One might wonder if their literacy has anything to do with that...
    - 9rx 2y ago
      Those who are illiterate, at least of those who could become literate, realize they don't understand something right from the get-go. It turns out they also typically seek the services of lawyers when buying land for the same reasons.
      - redundantly 2y ago
        That’s a pretty rosy view of the world. If that were true, the 2008 housing crisis wouldn’t have been nearly as bad. People get taken advantage of all the time because they don’t understand what they’re signing—and society’s conditioned us to agree to whatever’s put in front of us, from cell phone contracts to software usage to major investments. Plus, lawyers aren’t everywhere, and they’re not cheap. Most people can’t afford to just hire one whenever they need help.
        9rx 2y ago
        > the 2008 housing crisis wouldn’t have been nearly as bad. I'm not sure I agree. Lawyers aren't rulers, only advisers. They can give you a perfect understanding of the situation, and if you are caught in a fear of missing out state, which was certainly the case for many leading up to that timeframe, it is likely you'll ignore their advice anyway. In fact, many US states legally require lawyer advisory before completing a real estate transaction. Those states certainly did not avoid the real estate bubble. > People get taken advantage of all the time because they don’t understand what they’re signing Absolutely. Being able to comprehend every situation is straight up impossible. Not even the greatest minds of our time are able to do that. Not even lawyers themselves, whose job is to comprehend written text, are able to comprehend every situation. They focus on narrow specialities for good reason. There is no avoiding that situation. If someone wants to take advantage of you, they'll find a way.
pessimizer 2y ago
> if they learn to solve real problems in the real world and it helps them We have less evidence of this than of improvements in literacy rates. At least in the US, no part of the curriculum has anything to do with general life skills other than driver's ed and math, and innumeracy is far more common than illiteracy.