3 ms·

Is this new? Or has this been true for decades? What is the trend, both across countries and within each?

by randcraw 2y ago

dv_dt 2y ago
Could it also be that teenagers are taking standardized tests less seriously if the stakes aren't apparent
- lolinder 2y ago
  This isn't an answer to their question about whether there's been any change for the worse, it's speculation about the reason for the change, assuming any such change does exist.
- Cthulhu_ 2y ago
  I don't think this is based on standardized tests because they're not standardized internationally; this would be presented more as a questionnaire or poll than a test, made to assess roughly the same in every country it was given.
- SoftTalker 2y ago
  There have always been some. I remember kids just randomly filling in bubbles on the standardized tests 40 years ago when I was in school. There was no consequence to them and they just didn't care.
  - doubled112 2y ago
    "When in doubt, pick C" carried me all the way through college. Even when there were consequences, sometimes I still didn't care. I've since grown out of it.
Cthulhu_ 2y ago
I think you'll have to do that research for yourself, but I did a cursory googling for you and it seems fairly stable in the US since the 70's [0]. [0] https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=38 https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=38
dagurp 2y ago
In my country the trend has been alarming, especially among boys. The politicians just shrug and say that the PISA tests are flawed.
- MichaelZuo 2y ago
  What are their arguments for why it’s supposedly flawed?
  - obscurette 2y ago
    In Estonia there are many influential people arguing that although Estonian kids do really well in PISA tests (although the trend is declining there as well), they are also very unhappy kids. So PISA must be flawed. I haven't seen any data really supporting it except usual "mental problems are increasing since about 2010" data.
  - dagurp 2y ago
    One of them said that it wasn't good enough because they're optional. He didn't explain the logic behind that any further. Some say it's because the kids speak english all day.
    - JPLeRouzic 2y ago
      In France, the usual oral vocabulary is now far different from the one used in the last century (1950'). Many words and expressions are used now that older people (like me) do not understand. On the contrary, youngsters have a hard time reading literature from the 19th century. The vocabulary is very different, the orthography is also different, and the length of sentences rebukes them. It's not a thing only between youngsters, mainstream TV series already use this new vocabulary. While there have been a few official changes in orthography since 1990, I guess the unstated rule is now that it's OK to use a semi-phonetic orthography. At the same time, France's PISA results are awful. Après sai pa mes onions, chui q'un viok completement dèpasser
jabroni_salad 2y ago
Here's one from 2019: https://www.apmreports.org/episode/2019/08/22/whats-wrong-how-schools-teach-reading https://www.apmreports.org/episode/2019/08/22/whats-wrong-ho... but no, it isn't new. There's a war between phonetic reading and 'whole word' reading. Whole Word gets you around the 'but phonetics are confusing and there are too many exceptions' problem except that it produces people who cannot comprehend a document.
- DiggyJohnson 2y ago
  Is this actually demonstrated though? Seems like whole word reading didn’t result in improved outcomes.
  - graemep 2y ago
    I think it may depend on how reading is taught. I learned whole word reading, as did my children, and i think my siblings too but, we all learned to read at home. I think phonics may work better in a class room where you want to minimise the difference between slow and fast learners page, and kids do not get much individual attention. My kids learned to read from playing one to one games with flashcards and reading to/with a parent so whole word worked for us.
- 1659447091 2y ago
  I hadn't heard of "whole word" reading or at least not to the point of reading about it, but from that article and the wiki page, my opinion is that it should be combined with phonics, they complement each other. There is no need to compete. Most of the whole word stragity is describing how I coped and masked my hidden dyslexia throughout school (only learned about it as an adult). The whole word stragity of using context clues got me through standardize testing with perfect reading scores. Multiple times throughout school no one knew what to do with me in reading/English because I scored so highly, read so slowly, and hallucinated words if forced to read out loud (usually a word that meant the same thing but is written absolute nowhere, its the bane of my existence). I can not for the life of me sound out words to figure out the spelling, life would make a lot more sense if we all simply moved to using the phonetic transcription[0] way of spelling. I mean really, "realise" wrong in the US, correct in UK--but it sounds like guise, so why should "guize" be wrong? Yeah it is confusing, especially for spelling. The 'whole word' way to memorize as many words as possible--I mean you have to do that anyway to know when to use things like "ize" or "ise" in American English. I'm guessing there are more examples and occurs in other languages as well(?). This one in particular caused unnecessary frustration for me in school. Sounding out words(trying to) helps a little but it's more of a backup tool for me. My written vocabulary is vastly superior to my verbal simply because I can not pronounce all of the words I know. From my understanding, part of dyslexia can include the difficulty separating individual sounds. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonetic_transcription https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonetic_transcription

Is this new? Or has this been true for decades? What is the trend, both across countries and within each?

dv_dt 2y ago

Could it also be that teenagers are taking standardized tests less seriously if the stakes aren't apparent

lolinder 2y ago
This isn't an answer to their question about whether there's been any change for the worse, it's speculation about the reason for the change, assuming any such change does exist.
Cthulhu_ 2y ago
I don't think this is based on standardized tests because they're not standardized internationally; this would be presented more as a questionnaire or poll than a test, made to assess roughly the same in every country it was given.
SoftTalker 2y ago
There have always been some. I remember kids just randomly filling in bubbles on the standardized tests 40 years ago when I was in school. There was no consequence to them and they just didn't care.
- doubled112 2y ago
  "When in doubt, pick C" carried me all the way through college. Even when there were consequences, sometimes I still didn't care. I've since grown out of it.

Cthulhu_ 2y ago

I think you'll have to do that research for yourself, but I did a cursory googling for you and it seems fairly stable in the US since the 70's [0]. [0] https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=38 https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=38

dagurp 2y ago

In my country the trend has been alarming, especially among boys. The politicians just shrug and say that the PISA tests are flawed.

MichaelZuo 2y ago
What are their arguments for why it’s supposedly flawed?
- obscurette 2y ago
  In Estonia there are many influential people arguing that although Estonian kids do really well in PISA tests (although the trend is declining there as well), they are also very unhappy kids. So PISA must be flawed. I haven't seen any data really supporting it except usual "mental problems are increasing since about 2010" data.
- dagurp 2y ago
  One of them said that it wasn't good enough because they're optional. He didn't explain the logic behind that any further. Some say it's because the kids speak english all day.
  - JPLeRouzic 2y ago
    In France, the usual oral vocabulary is now far different from the one used in the last century (1950'). Many words and expressions are used now that older people (like me) do not understand. On the contrary, youngsters have a hard time reading literature from the 19th century. The vocabulary is very different, the orthography is also different, and the length of sentences rebukes them. It's not a thing only between youngsters, mainstream TV series already use this new vocabulary. While there have been a few official changes in orthography since 1990, I guess the unstated rule is now that it's OK to use a semi-phonetic orthography. At the same time, France's PISA results are awful. Après sai pa mes onions, chui q'un viok completement dèpasser

jabroni_salad 2y ago

Here's one from 2019: https://www.apmreports.org/episode/2019/08/22/whats-wrong-how-schools-teach-reading https://www.apmreports.org/episode/2019/08/22/whats-wrong-ho... but no, it isn't new. There's a war between phonetic reading and 'whole word' reading. Whole Word gets you around the 'but phonetics are confusing and there are too many exceptions' problem except that it produces people who cannot comprehend a document.

DiggyJohnson 2y ago
Is this actually demonstrated though? Seems like whole word reading didn’t result in improved outcomes.
- graemep 2y ago
  I think it may depend on how reading is taught. I learned whole word reading, as did my children, and i think my siblings too but, we all learned to read at home. I think phonics may work better in a class room where you want to minimise the difference between slow and fast learners page, and kids do not get much individual attention. My kids learned to read from playing one to one games with flashcards and reading to/with a parent so whole word worked for us.
1659447091 2y ago
I hadn't heard of "whole word" reading or at least not to the point of reading about it, but from that article and the wiki page, my opinion is that it should be combined with phonics, they complement each other. There is no need to compete. Most of the whole word stragity is describing how I coped and masked my hidden dyslexia throughout school (only learned about it as an adult). The whole word stragity of using context clues got me through standardize testing with perfect reading scores. Multiple times throughout school no one knew what to do with me in reading/English because I scored so highly, read so slowly, and hallucinated words if forced to read out loud (usually a word that meant the same thing but is written absolute nowhere, its the bane of my existence). I can not for the life of me sound out words to figure out the spelling, life would make a lot more sense if we all simply moved to using the phonetic transcription[0] way of spelling. I mean really, "realise" wrong in the US, correct in UK--but it sounds like guise, so why should "guize" be wrong? Yeah it is confusing, especially for spelling. The 'whole word' way to memorize as many words as possible--I mean you have to do that anyway to know when to use things like "ize" or "ise" in American English. I'm guessing there are more examples and occurs in other languages as well(?). This one in particular caused unnecessary frustration for me in school. Sounding out words(trying to) helps a little but it's more of a backup tool for me. My written vocabulary is vastly superior to my verbal simply because I can not pronounce all of the words I know. From my understanding, part of dyslexia can include the difficulty separating individual sounds. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonetic_transcription https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonetic_transcription