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>In software we have an unfortunate amount of people who don’t value social connections at all so we end up with a large tranche of people who can’t get past th

>In software we have an unfortunate amount of people who don’t value social connections at all so we end up with a large tranche of people who can’t get past the “but why would I talk to them without a specific reason?” argument and then lament why all of their relationships end up transactional, or even better lament why no one will help them specifically because all their relationships are transactional and they aren’t offering anything of value Yup, you get a lot of people complaining about the pointlessness of small talk, but the reality is that small talk is social glue. People want to work with people they like, and you only get that by having some level of casual ease with one another. Being 100% business all the time is the opposite of casual ease.

tejaskumar_ 2y ago
+100 to this.
ghaff 2y ago
Post a longtime job out of grad school via on-campus interview (which is a bit of an irrelevant story itself), every other of my (few) jobs were through a professional network. Nothing formal, but people I ran into and maintained some connection with. I know there are a lot of people who (at least until recently) are they just ping a recruiter and get offers dropped in their lap. Or who are deeply resentful that it seems like "who you know" is the modus operandi for some. But without being anything like deliberate or cynical about the whole thing, it worked for me.
lukan 2y ago
"Yup, you get a lot of people complaining about the pointlessness of small talk, but the reality is that small talk is social glue." Only with some people. Trying to do smalltalk with me, will not make me your friend. I simply hate smalltalk. (Talking unimportant things for the sake of talking) But there are a million of other interesting non buisness things I am willing to talk about at length. I also like to joke around and be silly. But that requires a connection, you won't get with me while talking about the weather. And I know many people are like me, most just adopted to "like" smalltalk, as they think this is the way it has to be.
- lovich 2y ago
  Small talk doesn’t need to be about the weather as the trope goes. It can be as simple as “hey have you seen {shared colleague} recently?” Or “Hey man, you get into any new hobbies recently?”, or “I’ve been dabbling in {x} tech, have you done anything like it or are could recommend an alternative based on {personal information you got from collaborating with this person}” The main point in making is that you need to continue in performing these relationship maintaining activities _before_ you need said persons help. For the extremely oblivious who haven’t researched any game theory but know some comp sci, imagine that relationships with all other humans needed regular mechanical Turk transactions with yourself or they will be identified as high risk groups that shouldn’t be afforded any leeway.
  - BlueTemplar 2y ago
    Small talk probably doesn't even need to be "talk", a consider the (in/)famous example of asking for a cigarette lighter.
  - lukan 2y ago
    "The main point in making is that you need to continue in performing these relationship maintaining activities _before_ you need said persons help." Well, but I am quite good in determining if another person is just trying to be (fake) friendly, so they can get my help later and I am not interested in that and smalltalk won't create that bond for me. I am interested in genuine connections. So if someone asks this question "Hey man, you get into any new hobbies recently" and is actually interested in my response - then this is simply not smalltalk anymore by my definition. And I gladly answer. And maybe form a bond. And of course help each other later. But if I feel, it is just a mechanical and calculated approach to bond with me, well, no thank you. But I also help people without doing smalltalk if I can.
    - tejaskumar_ 2y ago
      I fully agree with this.
    - lovich 2y ago
01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2y ago
It might be the depression talking, but I think in truth I don't want to like people. I'm not playing a strong Devil's Advocate for this thread, my comments are explanations and not excuses - I just don't like people, and I would need to be convinced that relationships are worth having, before I cared about how to have them. If I wanted lots of platonic business relationships I would be interested in how to have them.
- tejaskumar_ 2y ago
  If it's not too personal—why do you not want to like people?
  - bravetraveler 2y ago
    Not them, but can relate. I dwell on the asymmetrical nature a bit. Relationships take more than they provide. It's certainly an indication that I should maintain better relationships... but it's vastly easier to keep them minimal. I hear people now: "but opportunities!". Can't miss what you already have. To know I have a friend (of a certain class, at least) I have to be ready to effectively double the size of my life. It's already been pretty overwhelming. Different types of resilience involved or being developed Back on topic: I find it's less about the people and more... everything in between. The act of sorting; rarely worth the effort. Manufacturing productive business relationships has been far simpler than personal. Where some find benefit joining them... I actually enjoy space between.

tejaskumar_ 2y ago

+100 to this.

ghaff 2y ago

Post a longtime job out of grad school via on-campus interview (which is a bit of an irrelevant story itself), every other of my (few) jobs were through a professional network. Nothing formal, but people I ran into and maintained some connection with. I know there are a lot of people who (at least until recently) are they just ping a recruiter and get offers dropped in their lap. Or who are deeply resentful that it seems like "who you know" is the modus operandi for some. But without being anything like deliberate or cynical about the whole thing, it worked for me.

lukan 2y ago

"Yup, you get a lot of people complaining about the pointlessness of small talk, but the reality is that small talk is social glue." Only with some people. Trying to do smalltalk with me, will not make me your friend. I simply hate smalltalk. (Talking unimportant things for the sake of talking) But there are a million of other interesting non buisness things I am willing to talk about at length. I also like to joke around and be silly. But that requires a connection, you won't get with me while talking about the weather. And I know many people are like me, most just adopted to "like" smalltalk, as they think this is the way it has to be.

lovich 2y ago
Small talk doesn’t need to be about the weather as the trope goes. It can be as simple as “hey have you seen {shared colleague} recently?” Or “Hey man, you get into any new hobbies recently?”, or “I’ve been dabbling in {x} tech, have you done anything like it or are could recommend an alternative based on {personal information you got from collaborating with this person}” The main point in making is that you need to continue in performing these relationship maintaining activities _before_ you need said persons help. For the extremely oblivious who haven’t researched any game theory but know some comp sci, imagine that relationships with all other humans needed regular mechanical Turk transactions with yourself or they will be identified as high risk groups that shouldn’t be afforded any leeway.
- BlueTemplar 2y ago
  Small talk probably doesn't even need to be "talk", a consider the (in/)famous example of asking for a cigarette lighter.
- lukan 2y ago
  "The main point in making is that you need to continue in performing these relationship maintaining activities _before_ you need said persons help." Well, but I am quite good in determining if another person is just trying to be (fake) friendly, so they can get my help later and I am not interested in that and smalltalk won't create that bond for me. I am interested in genuine connections. So if someone asks this question "Hey man, you get into any new hobbies recently" and is actually interested in my response - then this is simply not smalltalk anymore by my definition. And I gladly answer. And maybe form a bond. And of course help each other later. But if I feel, it is just a mechanical and calculated approach to bond with me, well, no thank you. But I also help people without doing smalltalk if I can.
  - tejaskumar_ 2y ago
    I fully agree with this.
  - lovich 2y ago

01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2y ago

It might be the depression talking, but I think in truth I don't want to like people. I'm not playing a strong Devil's Advocate for this thread, my comments are explanations and not excuses - I just don't like people, and I would need to be convinced that relationships are worth having, before I cared about how to have them. If I wanted lots of platonic business relationships I would be interested in how to have them.

tejaskumar_ 2y ago
If it's not too personal—why do you not want to like people?
- bravetraveler 2y ago
  Not them, but can relate. I dwell on the asymmetrical nature a bit. Relationships take more than they provide. It's certainly an indication that I should maintain better relationships... but it's vastly easier to keep them minimal. I hear people now: "but opportunities!". Can't miss what you already have. To know I have a friend (of a certain class, at least) I have to be ready to effectively double the size of my life. It's already been pretty overwhelming. Different types of resilience involved or being developed Back on topic: I find it's less about the people and more... everything in between. The act of sorting; rarely worth the effort. Manufacturing productive business relationships has been far simpler than personal. Where some find benefit joining them... I actually enjoy space between.