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>No, it's just an inspid rant. This exact attitude is what gets the right wing growing. > As in, literally writing checks to their landlords? In some EU cou

>No, it's just an inspid rant. This exact attitude is what gets the right wing growing. > As in, literally writing checks to their landlords? In some EU countries (where I'm from), yes. A student friend of mine was even rejected by landlord who wanted Syrians because the government would pay their rent. But thank you for your valuable contribution to this conversation.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
aguaviva 2y ago
A student friend of mine was even rejected by landlord who wanted Syrians because the government would pay their rent. And are they there ... illegally? Or legally? Are there, in fact, per what you said, "millions" of illegal immigrants being housed and fed in the EU on public subsidy? I know you said "illegal immigrants and refugees", so I misquoted you slghtly. But the bigger point is -- why conflate the two, when the numbers and overall situations are obviously entirely different? (In particular - while legally recognized asylum seekers might be eligible to obtain housing subsidies, illegal migrants quite definitely cannot). To be charitable, one can assume there was no manipulative intent, and you were just being careless. But if so, then you'll have to acknowledge that that's why your missive appeared, at first glance, to be well, a rant. The solution is to listen to their worries and take action to fix them instead of ignoring them and calling them stupid It isn't the concerns of the voters, but the relentless cognitive distortions we keep hearing about push-button topics such as this one (generally promoted by ideologues and pundits, rather than the voters themselves) that are, for want of a better term, stupid. (And on the subject of stupid, my initial response contained a horrible typo -- should have said "unauthorized", rather than "authorized").
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > And are they there ... illegally? Or legally? Not relevant to the political question. The point is there is anger at the number of migrants European politicians let in.
  - aguaviva 2y ago
    The concern is the distorted and manipulative rhetoric. Which in turn further drives and exploits the anger.
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > the concern is the distorted and manipulative rhetoric That’s a concern. The working poor’s concern is the labor competition from one side and welfare competition from the other.
  - oezi 2y ago
    This is part of the illusion that it is as if our politicians let anybody in. Not a single politician would welcome even one more asylum seeker. The immigrants by large are coming from the worst imaginable conditions and fighting their way into Fortress Europe. It is the failure of our societies to help the countries like Syria, Afghanistan, etc to be liveable. We are paying the price for this failure.
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > Not a single politician would welcome even one more asylum seeker There were absolutely pro-migration politicians, e.g. Merkel. > immigrants by large are coming from the worst imaginable conditions and fighting their way into Fortress Europe Europe continues to have generous refugee obligations, protections and benefits. There also isn’t a robust deportation regime, in part because there isn’t anywhere to legally deport them to. That’s probably what these voters take offence to. (I unfortunately don’t see any non-radical solutions.)
  - youngtaff 2y ago
    Well if the US and UK hadn’t invaded Iraq and Afghanistan, and fermented civil war in countries like Libya and Syria maybe we’d have a lot less Of course Russia and China aren’t innocent when it comes to Syria and large parts of Africa
- speeder 2y ago
  In Portugal, illegal immigrants have lots of rights. For example rights now the government is struggling with having enough medics and ambulance drivers to meet demand. To the point several people died waiting for ambulance because no driver was available. Yet, the government gave 100% free treatment to 48k immigrants that had no information. Many of then pregnant women from Asian countries with complicated situations that coat lots of money. Some illegal immigrants even got right to have treatments with medicines that cost millions.
  - Cumpiler69 2y ago
    This is what gets you flagged on HN.
- tokinonagare 2y ago
  > Are there, in fact, per what you said, "millions" of illegal immigrants being housed and fed in the EU on public subsidy? There is North of 700 000 illegal residents in France alone. So yes, millions in the UE. Here, they have free health care (CMU) costing more than a billion euros per year while the government wanted reduced refunds on medical acts and medicine for people paying for it. How do you justify things like illegal immigrants having a 75% off on their subway pass[1] in Paris (I just paid mine 86€ today for the month) while a French national on unemployment benefits like I am currently doesn't even have a 25% off? It's exactly why people as voting for the so-called "far"-right party, with are still quite leftist in comparison to the ruling parties of countries like Japan, Thailand, etc. [1] https://www.iledefrance-mobilites.fr/titres-et-tarifs/detail/solidarite-75 https://www.iledefrance-mobilites.fr/titres-et-tarifs/detail...
  - aguaviva 2y ago
    That's why I stressed the "being housed" part, which the commenter to whom I responded asserted was being provided for all illegals residents (or at least multiple millions of them anyway). And in France would cost (at the very inside) some 4.2 billion euros per year, by some napkin math. That is, at least 4x the cost of health care. So that was my concern -- what purpose is served by promoting a grossly exaggerated characterization of the actual cost of having these people around? How do you justify things like illegal immigrants having a 75% off on their subway pass[1] in Paris (I just paid mine 86€ today for the month) while a French national on unemployment benefits like I am currently doesn't even have a 25% off? If it were up to me, I'd stick it incrementally to you-know-who have you also getting a Solidarité reduction. But that's obviously not kind thing the voting public wants to hear these days.
- cnlevy 2y ago
  And are they there ... illegally? Or legally? In France, if you are illegal, you get free healthcare. https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aide_m%C3%A9dicale_d%27%C3%89tat https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aide_m%C3%A9dicale_d%27%C3%8...

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

aguaviva 2y ago

A student friend of mine was even rejected by landlord who wanted Syrians because the government would pay their rent. And are they there ... illegally? Or legally? Are there, in fact, per what you said, "millions" of illegal immigrants being housed and fed in the EU on public subsidy? I know you said "illegal immigrants and refugees", so I misquoted you slghtly. But the bigger point is -- why conflate the two, when the numbers and overall situations are obviously entirely different? (In particular - while legally recognized asylum seekers might be eligible to obtain housing subsidies, illegal migrants quite definitely cannot). To be charitable, one can assume there was no manipulative intent, and you were just being careless. But if so, then you'll have to acknowledge that that's why your missive appeared, at first glance, to be well, a rant. The solution is to listen to their worries and take action to fix them instead of ignoring them and calling them stupid It isn't the concerns of the voters, but the relentless cognitive distortions we keep hearing about push-button topics such as this one (generally promoted by ideologues and pundits, rather than the voters themselves) that are, for want of a better term, stupid. (And on the subject of stupid, my initial response contained a horrible typo -- should have said "unauthorized", rather than "authorized").

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> And are they there ... illegally? Or legally? Not relevant to the political question. The point is there is anger at the number of migrants European politicians let in.
- aguaviva 2y ago
  The concern is the distorted and manipulative rhetoric. Which in turn further drives and exploits the anger.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > the concern is the distorted and manipulative rhetoric That’s a concern. The working poor’s concern is the labor competition from one side and welfare competition from the other.
- oezi 2y ago
  This is part of the illusion that it is as if our politicians let anybody in. Not a single politician would welcome even one more asylum seeker. The immigrants by large are coming from the worst imaginable conditions and fighting their way into Fortress Europe. It is the failure of our societies to help the countries like Syria, Afghanistan, etc to be liveable. We are paying the price for this failure.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > Not a single politician would welcome even one more asylum seeker There were absolutely pro-migration politicians, e.g. Merkel. > immigrants by large are coming from the worst imaginable conditions and fighting their way into Fortress Europe Europe continues to have generous refugee obligations, protections and benefits. There also isn’t a robust deportation regime, in part because there isn’t anywhere to legally deport them to. That’s probably what these voters take offence to. (I unfortunately don’t see any non-radical solutions.)
- youngtaff 2y ago
  Well if the US and UK hadn’t invaded Iraq and Afghanistan, and fermented civil war in countries like Libya and Syria maybe we’d have a lot less Of course Russia and China aren’t innocent when it comes to Syria and large parts of Africa
speeder 2y ago
In Portugal, illegal immigrants have lots of rights. For example rights now the government is struggling with having enough medics and ambulance drivers to meet demand. To the point several people died waiting for ambulance because no driver was available. Yet, the government gave 100% free treatment to 48k immigrants that had no information. Many of then pregnant women from Asian countries with complicated situations that coat lots of money. Some illegal immigrants even got right to have treatments with medicines that cost millions.
- Cumpiler69 2y ago
  This is what gets you flagged on HN.
tokinonagare 2y ago
> Are there, in fact, per what you said, "millions" of illegal immigrants being housed and fed in the EU on public subsidy? There is North of 700 000 illegal residents in France alone. So yes, millions in the UE. Here, they have free health care (CMU) costing more than a billion euros per year while the government wanted reduced refunds on medical acts and medicine for people paying for it. How do you justify things like illegal immigrants having a 75% off on their subway pass[1] in Paris (I just paid mine 86€ today for the month) while a French national on unemployment benefits like I am currently doesn't even have a 25% off? It's exactly why people as voting for the so-called "far"-right party, with are still quite leftist in comparison to the ruling parties of countries like Japan, Thailand, etc. [1] https://www.iledefrance-mobilites.fr/titres-et-tarifs/detail/solidarite-75 https://www.iledefrance-mobilites.fr/titres-et-tarifs/detail...
- aguaviva 2y ago
  That's why I stressed the "being housed" part, which the commenter to whom I responded asserted was being provided for all illegals residents (or at least multiple millions of them anyway). And in France would cost (at the very inside) some 4.2 billion euros per year, by some napkin math. That is, at least 4x the cost of health care. So that was my concern -- what purpose is served by promoting a grossly exaggerated characterization of the actual cost of having these people around? How do you justify things like illegal immigrants having a 75% off on their subway pass[1] in Paris (I just paid mine 86€ today for the month) while a French national on unemployment benefits like I am currently doesn't even have a 25% off? If it were up to me, I'd stick it incrementally to you-know-who have you also getting a Solidarité reduction. But that's obviously not kind thing the voting public wants to hear these days.
cnlevy 2y ago
And are they there ... illegally? Or legally? In France, if you are illegal, you get free healthcare. https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aide_m%C3%A9dicale_d%27%C3%89tat https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aide_m%C3%A9dicale_d%27%C3%8...