19 ms·

Very good point. What's the old saying "A friend in need, is a friend, indeed."? I like to have personal relationships, as opposed to corporate ones. Funny s

Very good point. What's the old saying "A friend in need, is a friend, indeed."? I like to have personal relationships, as opposed to corporate ones. Funny story: During the 1990s, my direct boss was a fairly low-key Japanese man. I really liked him. He was a marketing type, so we didn't really have a technical basis for our relationship. He was a decent chap, and I happily followed his orders. In return, he gave me a great deal of agency. After he returned to Japan, we'd run into each other, from time to time, and it was always a warm, effusive greeting. Years later, he was the Chairman of the Board of the corporation. I never leveraged the relationship, but my team was always treated well, at our level. We were a small technical team, and it would have been inappropriate to focus on us too much. I had very little ambition to go much higher up the corporate food chain, so all was fine. Once, he made a visit to our office (the US branch). It was a really big deal, and people were snapping to attention all over the building. He dropped by my tiny little office, to say hi. It was really amusing, to see the puzzled expressions on all the corporate bigwigs in his entourage.

tejaskumar_ 2y ago
Hahaha, what a lovely story! Really shows what happens when we engage as _people_, not _opportunities_.
- ghaff 2y ago
  This is a lot of the misunderstanding around "networking" you see in discussions. A lot of tech people see it as an unwelcome task/burden. Whereas, it should be generally viewed as a pleasurable opportunity to just get to know people who may (or may not) be useful at some point in the future.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - tejaskumar_ 2y ago
    My theory is that that term has this reputation because it is somewhat dehumanized: you _talk_ to people, you _network_ with opportunities.
  - Aurornis 2y ago
    I think this happens because networking is always proposed as a way out of a bad career situation. Someone complains online about lack of opportunities then commenters come along to parrot networking as a solution. It sounds like a task you do for career gain. I have another theory that this creates a lot of rebound anger at the idea of networking. When I was doing mentoring (external to my company, people I didn't work with) I spent a depressing amount of time convincing young engineers that it was a bad idea to burn bridges as they left a company. Way too many people are enamored with the idea of ghosting their job or telling off their coworkers on the way out the door. It takes some convincing to get them to realize that leaving a bad impression on an entire office of people is the fastest way to poison their potential network. Nobody will want to refer you for future jobs if you're a jerk in your final days.
  - 01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2y ago
    I'm not used to putting effort into friendships, so it does sound like an unwelcome task. And it sounds phony, since I have never put effort before. If I have to put effort then am I not faking it?
    - tejaskumar_ 2y ago
      I'm not sure I understand this: do you mean you don't put in effort, or you do but the effort doesn't _feel_ like work?
    - ChrisMarshallNY 2y ago
      I'm "on the spectrum," so human relationships are a bit foreign to me. I'd make a great hermit. Pretty much every relationship I have "doesn't come natural." I need to put conscious effort into every one. I have also been involved in an organization, for most of my adult life, that has been instrumental, in helping to force me to have relationships with others, and it has taught me to be a good friend, and has given me good friends. I'm not really into "transactional" relationships. In many cases, the extent of our relationship is only where we need to work with each other. I don't need to be their buddy, but, in the context of our work, I have found that it helps me to develop a true interest in the other person. In my experience, I have realized that I'm actually a "people person." I really like people, and have found great utility, in ignoring my prejudices, and actually finding out a lot about the others in my life.
      - zafka 2y ago
        I really identify with your last sentence! Well actually your whole comment.
      - Dracophoenix 2y ago
        > Pretty much every relationship I have "doesn't come natural." I need to put conscious effort into every one. In what way exactly?
        ChrisMarshallNY 2y ago
  - digging 2y ago
    I think the misunderstanding, in fact, is in reverse, demonstrated by the above comment. The networking required for career growth is, for many people, never going to pleasurable. My social circles don't have much overlap with, for example, startup founders. Developing personal relationships in my network is not likely to ever benefit my career growth. When people give the advice to "network" to enable my career growth, the people who would be most helpful tend not to have much in common with me, and building relationships with them often means not being true to myself, or even hiding myself. It isn't enough to simply build relationships or even be good at building relationships. Mostly, one needs to buy goodwill from those people who actually have power to help you.
    - tuna74 2y ago
      This was a really insightful comment!
    - lelanthran 2y ago
      > When people give the advice to "network" to enable my career growth, the people who would be most helpful tend not to have much in common with me, and building relationships with them often means not being true to myself, or even hiding myself. Then it's best to recognise this early and decide if you want to be true to yourself or if you want to succeed[1]. [1] Depending on your definition of "success", plodding along for 40 years as an IC, contributing your skills to whichever employer and eventually retiring is, for many, "Success" with a capital "S". The people giving the networking advice are using a different definition, which is usually "rising in your career until you are making an impact far larger than an IC could". Not networking with the other rising stars gives you a very low chance of attaining that second definition of success.
      - digging 2y ago
        Hm, I mostly agree, but I think that's a bit tangential. It's not like people really get to make that choice and still have a good chance at success. In order to meet any definition of success[1], you need to get hired. And also, if you're in a job that's making you miserable, you once again need to get hired (somewhere else). Networking is the solution to that problem. If you're not someone who can enjoy and/or succeed at networking, your career is at risk. There's not much you can do about that except take a different path. [1] excluding either "leave the field and succeed somewhere else" or "start your own company"[2] [2] although starting one's own company without a robust network would probably also be a pretty difficult path
gadders 2y ago
A similar thing happened to me recently. A chap I knew at a previous bank when I was an AVP and he was a VP is now on the board of my (very large multinational) company. When we caught up it was nice to see that he was exactly the same, and remembered me and said hello.
- tejaskumar_ 2y ago
  These people are the real MVPs.
- BurningFrog 2y ago
  The way I think of it, top executives or famous people are just someone with a different job than mine. So I treat them that way, and that works really well for me.
impute 2y ago
How did you "run into each other, from time to time"? This seems to be the key part. There's research that shows that relationships are built via multiple, random encounters. Do you think he still would have dropped by your office if you hadn't had these run ins?
- ChrisMarshallNY 2y ago
  I would go to Tokyo, once or thrice a year. Long trip. I don't really miss it. We'd usually run into each other at the train station, or in the corridors of the meeting room floor. Our meets were always quite brief and serendipitous. We were in very different orbits.

tejaskumar_ 2y ago

Hahaha, what a lovely story! Really shows what happens when we engage as _people_, not _opportunities_.

ghaff 2y ago
This is a lot of the misunderstanding around "networking" you see in discussions. A lot of tech people see it as an unwelcome task/burden. Whereas, it should be generally viewed as a pleasurable opportunity to just get to know people who may (or may not) be useful at some point in the future.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- tejaskumar_ 2y ago
  My theory is that that term has this reputation because it is somewhat dehumanized: you _talk_ to people, you _network_ with opportunities.
- Aurornis 2y ago
  I think this happens because networking is always proposed as a way out of a bad career situation. Someone complains online about lack of opportunities then commenters come along to parrot networking as a solution. It sounds like a task you do for career gain. I have another theory that this creates a lot of rebound anger at the idea of networking. When I was doing mentoring (external to my company, people I didn't work with) I spent a depressing amount of time convincing young engineers that it was a bad idea to burn bridges as they left a company. Way too many people are enamored with the idea of ghosting their job or telling off their coworkers on the way out the door. It takes some convincing to get them to realize that leaving a bad impression on an entire office of people is the fastest way to poison their potential network. Nobody will want to refer you for future jobs if you're a jerk in your final days.
- 01HNNWZ0MV43FF 2y ago
  I'm not used to putting effort into friendships, so it does sound like an unwelcome task. And it sounds phony, since I have never put effort before. If I have to put effort then am I not faking it?
  - tejaskumar_ 2y ago
    I'm not sure I understand this: do you mean you don't put in effort, or you do but the effort doesn't _feel_ like work?
  - ChrisMarshallNY 2y ago
    I'm "on the spectrum," so human relationships are a bit foreign to me. I'd make a great hermit. Pretty much every relationship I have "doesn't come natural." I need to put conscious effort into every one. I have also been involved in an organization, for most of my adult life, that has been instrumental, in helping to force me to have relationships with others, and it has taught me to be a good friend, and has given me good friends. I'm not really into "transactional" relationships. In many cases, the extent of our relationship is only where we need to work with each other. I don't need to be their buddy, but, in the context of our work, I have found that it helps me to develop a true interest in the other person. In my experience, I have realized that I'm actually a "people person." I really like people, and have found great utility, in ignoring my prejudices, and actually finding out a lot about the others in my life.
    - zafka 2y ago
      I really identify with your last sentence! Well actually your whole comment.
    - Dracophoenix 2y ago
      > Pretty much every relationship I have "doesn't come natural." I need to put conscious effort into every one. In what way exactly?
      - ChrisMarshallNY 2y ago
- digging 2y ago
  I think the misunderstanding, in fact, is in reverse, demonstrated by the above comment. The networking required for career growth is, for many people, never going to pleasurable. My social circles don't have much overlap with, for example, startup founders. Developing personal relationships in my network is not likely to ever benefit my career growth. When people give the advice to "network" to enable my career growth, the people who would be most helpful tend not to have much in common with me, and building relationships with them often means not being true to myself, or even hiding myself. It isn't enough to simply build relationships or even be good at building relationships. Mostly, one needs to buy goodwill from those people who actually have power to help you.
  - tuna74 2y ago
    This was a really insightful comment!
  - lelanthran 2y ago
    > When people give the advice to "network" to enable my career growth, the people who would be most helpful tend not to have much in common with me, and building relationships with them often means not being true to myself, or even hiding myself. Then it's best to recognise this early and decide if you want to be true to yourself or if you want to succeed[1]. [1] Depending on your definition of "success", plodding along for 40 years as an IC, contributing your skills to whichever employer and eventually retiring is, for many, "Success" with a capital "S". The people giving the networking advice are using a different definition, which is usually "rising in your career until you are making an impact far larger than an IC could". Not networking with the other rising stars gives you a very low chance of attaining that second definition of success.
    - digging 2y ago
      Hm, I mostly agree, but I think that's a bit tangential. It's not like people really get to make that choice and still have a good chance at success. In order to meet any definition of success[1], you need to get hired. And also, if you're in a job that's making you miserable, you once again need to get hired (somewhere else). Networking is the solution to that problem. If you're not someone who can enjoy and/or succeed at networking, your career is at risk. There's not much you can do about that except take a different path. [1] excluding either "leave the field and succeed somewhere else" or "start your own company"[2] [2] although starting one's own company without a robust network would probably also be a pretty difficult path

gadders 2y ago

A similar thing happened to me recently. A chap I knew at a previous bank when I was an AVP and he was a VP is now on the board of my (very large multinational) company. When we caught up it was nice to see that he was exactly the same, and remembered me and said hello.

tejaskumar_ 2y ago
These people are the real MVPs.
BurningFrog 2y ago
The way I think of it, top executives or famous people are just someone with a different job than mine. So I treat them that way, and that works really well for me.

impute 2y ago

How did you "run into each other, from time to time"? This seems to be the key part. There's research that shows that relationships are built via multiple, random encounters. Do you think he still would have dropped by your office if you hadn't had these run ins?

ChrisMarshallNY 2y ago
I would go to Tokyo, once or thrice a year. Long trip. I don't really miss it. We'd usually run into each other at the train station, or in the corridors of the meeting room floor. Our meets were always quite brief and serendipitous. We were in very different orbits.