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> Reagan set the scene for this in the 70s Ronald Reagan was president from 1981 - 1989. He may have been a Republican, but his actual policies were quite left

> Reagan set the scene for this in the 70s Ronald Reagan was president from 1981 - 1989. He may have been a Republican, but his actual policies were quite left-wing (eg no-fault divorce, amnesty for illegal immigrants).

thrance 2y ago
Raegan had left-wing policies? Are you trying to reinterpret history to suit your views? Look at this page [1], how are austerity and capital gain tax cuts left-wing again? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reaganomics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reaganomics
n4r9 2y ago
My bad about the dates. The Chicago school of neoclassical economics came in during the 70s, but Reaganomics was put in place in the 80s. But to frame Reagan as left-wing is disingenuous. Immigration and divorce were very minor focuses of his policies. He was very much right-wing on healthcare, regulation, crime, welfare, abortion, etc...
- MrBuddyCasino 2y ago
  I would not go so far as to say Reagan was overall left-wing, but he did some things are are very left-wing and also had a huge impact and weren't minor at all. California has been a blue state since his immigration amnesty, this was not the case before - it was usually solid red. Was Bill Clinton "right wing" because of his free trade politics (eg NAFTA)? Contemporary left-wing politics do not look like communist Russia when it comes to the economy. The American use of the term "liberal" (or "liberalism") is more useful in that regard, and that includes free trade, and also immigration of foreign labor, something that naive observers might categorise as "neoliberal" or "turbo-capitalist", except that many left-wing governments engaged it in (US, Canada, UK and many more).
  - n4r9 2y ago
    Yeah, it may be misleading to characterise individuals as definitively right or left wing. And of course the left/right divide has to be considered in the context of the country's current situation. That said, policies favouring deregulation, privatisation, and laissez faire capitalism are generally seen as right-wing. Both Reagan and Clinton implemented such policies as we've discussed above to the general detriment of the consumer.
  - BorgHunter 2y ago
    It seems to me that your main mistake here is assuming that parties like the US Democratic Party, the UK Labour Party, the Canadian Liberal Party, etc. are left-wing. They aren't. They've been practicing "Third Way" politics for decades now, and there's very little left-wing about their proposals. IMO this is the source of a lot of public discontent with these parties: They don't offer a true alternative, just a diet version of the same policies that largely harm the public. > Was Bill Clinton "right wing" because of his free trade politics (eg NAFTA)? Yes! This is the point. Who benefited from Clinton's economic policies? It certainly wasn't the employees of the companies who offshored production because they were incentivized to by NAFTA. By capitulating to the right on economic issues and trying to differentiate only on the basis of social issues, the Democratic Party ceded its strongest argument: That turbo-capitalist (as you put it) economic policy only benefits corporations and the wealthy, and harms labor and the country as a whole. Democrats as a party cannot credibly make that argument anymore, because they're fully complicit. A few politicians carry lonely torches for actual left-wing politics (e.g. Bernie Sanders), but for the most part, there's close to zero power behind left wing ideas today.
    - MrBuddyCasino 2y ago
      I probably don't share your definition of what "left-wing" is, but how would you define it?
      - BorgHunter 2y ago
        Broadly, left-wing politics favors making money and power more diffuse and is suspicious of hierarchy, right-wing politics favors making money and power more concentrated and embraces hierarchy. Politics is, of course, messy and not everything fits neatly into this framework (and people have idiosyncratic opinions sometimes), but that's how I view it in broad strokes. What about you?
        MrBuddyCasino 2y ago
        > Broadly, left-wing politics favors making money and power more diffuse and is suspicious of hierarchy How do you "make money more diffuse"? I would agree that the hierarchy thing is broadly correct, and many use this definition, but I find it unsatisfactory, as it does not move me in any way. "Yeah hierarchy is so cool man" said no one ever. Taking left-wing ideology at face value is a mistake, what is interesting is the underlying psychology. The stated goals and how it plays out in practise are never aligned, thus the "real communism has never been tried" meme. If you are attached to leftism or simply never delved deeper into political philosophy, these definitions might offend you, but they are psychologically correct: "The bugman pretends to be motivated by compassion, but is instead motivated by a titanic hatred of the well-turned-out and beautiful." [BAP] "Communism is when ugly deformed freaks make it illegal to be normal then rob and/or kill all successful people out of petty resentment and cruelty. The ideology is all just window dressing." [Mystery Grove]

thrance 2y ago

Raegan had left-wing policies? Are you trying to reinterpret history to suit your views? Look at this page [1], how are austerity and capital gain tax cuts left-wing again? [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reaganomics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reaganomics

n4r9 2y ago

My bad about the dates. The Chicago school of neoclassical economics came in during the 70s, but Reaganomics was put in place in the 80s. But to frame Reagan as left-wing is disingenuous. Immigration and divorce were very minor focuses of his policies. He was very much right-wing on healthcare, regulation, crime, welfare, abortion, etc...

MrBuddyCasino 2y ago
I would not go so far as to say Reagan was overall left-wing, but he did some things are are very left-wing and also had a huge impact and weren't minor at all. California has been a blue state since his immigration amnesty, this was not the case before - it was usually solid red. Was Bill Clinton "right wing" because of his free trade politics (eg NAFTA)? Contemporary left-wing politics do not look like communist Russia when it comes to the economy. The American use of the term "liberal" (or "liberalism") is more useful in that regard, and that includes free trade, and also immigration of foreign labor, something that naive observers might categorise as "neoliberal" or "turbo-capitalist", except that many left-wing governments engaged it in (US, Canada, UK and many more).
- n4r9 2y ago
  Yeah, it may be misleading to characterise individuals as definitively right or left wing. And of course the left/right divide has to be considered in the context of the country's current situation. That said, policies favouring deregulation, privatisation, and laissez faire capitalism are generally seen as right-wing. Both Reagan and Clinton implemented such policies as we've discussed above to the general detriment of the consumer.
- BorgHunter 2y ago
  It seems to me that your main mistake here is assuming that parties like the US Democratic Party, the UK Labour Party, the Canadian Liberal Party, etc. are left-wing. They aren't. They've been practicing "Third Way" politics for decades now, and there's very little left-wing about their proposals. IMO this is the source of a lot of public discontent with these parties: They don't offer a true alternative, just a diet version of the same policies that largely harm the public. > Was Bill Clinton "right wing" because of his free trade politics (eg NAFTA)? Yes! This is the point. Who benefited from Clinton's economic policies? It certainly wasn't the employees of the companies who offshored production because they were incentivized to by NAFTA. By capitulating to the right on economic issues and trying to differentiate only on the basis of social issues, the Democratic Party ceded its strongest argument: That turbo-capitalist (as you put it) economic policy only benefits corporations and the wealthy, and harms labor and the country as a whole. Democrats as a party cannot credibly make that argument anymore, because they're fully complicit. A few politicians carry lonely torches for actual left-wing politics (e.g. Bernie Sanders), but for the most part, there's close to zero power behind left wing ideas today.
  - MrBuddyCasino 2y ago
    I probably don't share your definition of what "left-wing" is, but how would you define it?
    - BorgHunter 2y ago
      Broadly, left-wing politics favors making money and power more diffuse and is suspicious of hierarchy, right-wing politics favors making money and power more concentrated and embraces hierarchy. Politics is, of course, messy and not everything fits neatly into this framework (and people have idiosyncratic opinions sometimes), but that's how I view it in broad strokes. What about you?
      - MrBuddyCasino 2y ago
        > Broadly, left-wing politics favors making money and power more diffuse and is suspicious of hierarchy How do you "make money more diffuse"? I would agree that the hierarchy thing is broadly correct, and many use this definition, but I find it unsatisfactory, as it does not move me in any way. "Yeah hierarchy is so cool man" said no one ever. Taking left-wing ideology at face value is a mistake, what is interesting is the underlying psychology. The stated goals and how it plays out in practise are never aligned, thus the "real communism has never been tried" meme. If you are attached to leftism or simply never delved deeper into political philosophy, these definitions might offend you, but they are psychologically correct: "The bugman pretends to be motivated by compassion, but is instead motivated by a titanic hatred of the well-turned-out and beautiful." [BAP] "Communism is when ugly deformed freaks make it illegal to be normal then rob and/or kill all successful people out of petty resentment and cruelty. The ideology is all just window dressing." [Mystery Grove]