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>I don't think anyone is seriously claiming that there is no innovation whatsoever in the EU. I never said that. Please follow HN rules and reply to the strong

>I don't think anyone is seriously claiming that there is no innovation whatsoever in the EU. I never said that. Please follow HN rules and reply to the strongest interpretation of one's argument, not the weakest. The EU economy was at the same level as the US economy 15-20 years ago., now it's only half the US. The EU missed out on all the major technological innovations in that time and therefore missed out on a lot of income for welfare while welfare expenses only grew due to ageing population and increasing cost of living. >Falling behind the US doesn't mean there is absolutely nothing. No, it means less money for welfare. Especially with an ever increasing ageing population. If you want to take care of all of those people at a high quality of life, it's gonna cost you, and we don't have that kind of money anymore. So you either get Europeans to accept slowly sliding into poverty due to declining welfare and rising CoL, OR, you need to bring in more money to the state somehow. Previously it was done in Europe via slavery and theft through colonialism, but since that conveyor belt of free money is gone and what's left to bring in more money is innovation in highly profitable high-growth industries where EU is almost absent. No, ASML, Airbus and some struggling German mittlestand companies can't support a whole continent like they did in the 1980's. >I think a lot of people in the EU would be fine with being 3rd on "productivity" if it was enough to maintain a high standard of living and decent competitiveness. They would be fine, if those losses would come out of the pockets of tax dodging corporations, but they're not, they're being eaten up by the working class and the taxpayer who still expects the same welfare quality like in the good ol' days when the EU economy was as strong as the US. Do you you see how this level of welfare is unsustainable without matching economic growth?

sofixa 2y ago
You said > Without innovations and highly profitable industries generating well paying working class jobs, with what will you pay for that welfare and quality of life Without presumes with none, and you're saying it like it's true. > The EU economy was at the same level as the US economy 15-20 years ago., now it's only half the US. The EU missed out on all the major technological innovations in that time Really, all major technological innovations? Why is the leading music streaming provider Swedish (Spotify)? Leading and most advanced airplane manufacturer European (Airbus)? Why are there so many fintechs which are a decade ahead of US counterparts (Revolut, Monzo, MyPOS, SumUp, Bunq, Qonto) and why is finance-related tech so much ahead - you can pay contactless pretty much anywhere in most of the EU and UK, you can accept card payments with your phone and just an app, all banks have to have an API with Oauth to be able to aggregate accounts and whatever? Also I'd like to add advancements in nuclear fusion. Also I haven't experienced healthcare in the US, but from what I've seen it doesn't look like there's anything even close to the seamlessness of Doctolib in France. The EU is indeed falling behind, IMO mostly due to lack of capital, risk/gambling averseness, and the much smaller individual markets. But to say it has missed all innovations, or that it has no innovation is simply untrue. We need more of them, we need to invest into more of them, because there's a lot of potential that needs to be nurtured and grow.
- Cumpiler69 2y ago
  >Without presumes with none Only if you want to be a sticker and take things literally while deliberately ignoring the context to score a cheap shot gothca, then sure, it then means without. > Leading and most advanced airplane manufacturer European (Airbus)? Because of government intervention, and moat of a highly regulated and expensive to enter industry that keeps new players out. Why is SpaceX ahead of EU aerospace companies? >Why is the leading music streaming provider Swedish (Spotify)? Spotify wasn't even profitable until recently and only made it where it is today, due to to massive capital investments form the US, not from EU investors. >Why are there so many fintechs which are a decade ahead of US counterparts Are they also ahead in earnings/profits too? Because you fund welfare with taxes on profits and on wages. You can't tax innovations that bring you no money. That's where While you keep blabbering on about Airbus, Monzo and Spotify , have a look at the top 100 companies in the world by market cap and see how many are from the EU and how many from the US and that's case closed. AIrbus, Spotify, etc are the rare exceptions, not the norm for Europe.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > Why is SpaceX ahead of EU aerospace companies? “A system of non-competition clauses enforced by the European Space Agency’s (ESA) workforce suppliers is allegedly trapping aerospace professionals who work at ESA’s facilities across Europe in a professional dead-end street” [1]. Europe is absolutely riddled with this crap, and it tends to come top down from the EU. https://arstechnica.com/space/2024/12/esa-workers-face-a-maze-of-non-compete-clauses-and-service-contracts/ https://arstechnica.com/space/2024/12/esa-workers-face-a-maz...
  - m4rtink 2y ago
    Well, not many viable orbitial launch sectors in continental Europe - that by itself is already a blocker. :P And arguably USA was also quite lucky to end up with SpaceX, given how many traditionalists in the industry were so full of "this can't be done!". :P
- RestlessMind 2y ago
  > Really, all major technological innovations? Here is the data: https://www.voronoiapp.com/markets/-US-vs-European-Stock-Market-Capitalization-Historic-31-Ratio-Reached-in-Q3-2024-2882 https://www.voronoiapp.com/markets/-US-vs-European-Stock-Mar... If Europe is so innovative, why is US to EU stock market cap ratio is on a consistent upward swing by since mid 2000's?

sofixa 2y ago

You said > Without innovations and highly profitable industries generating well paying working class jobs, with what will you pay for that welfare and quality of life Without presumes with none, and you're saying it like it's true. > The EU economy was at the same level as the US economy 15-20 years ago., now it's only half the US. The EU missed out on all the major technological innovations in that time Really, all major technological innovations? Why is the leading music streaming provider Swedish (Spotify)? Leading and most advanced airplane manufacturer European (Airbus)? Why are there so many fintechs which are a decade ahead of US counterparts (Revolut, Monzo, MyPOS, SumUp, Bunq, Qonto) and why is finance-related tech so much ahead - you can pay contactless pretty much anywhere in most of the EU and UK, you can accept card payments with your phone and just an app, all banks have to have an API with Oauth to be able to aggregate accounts and whatever? Also I'd like to add advancements in nuclear fusion. Also I haven't experienced healthcare in the US, but from what I've seen it doesn't look like there's anything even close to the seamlessness of Doctolib in France. The EU is indeed falling behind, IMO mostly due to lack of capital, risk/gambling averseness, and the much smaller individual markets. But to say it has missed all innovations, or that it has no innovation is simply untrue. We need more of them, we need to invest into more of them, because there's a lot of potential that needs to be nurtured and grow.

Cumpiler69 2y ago
>Without presumes with none Only if you want to be a sticker and take things literally while deliberately ignoring the context to score a cheap shot gothca, then sure, it then means without. > Leading and most advanced airplane manufacturer European (Airbus)? Because of government intervention, and moat of a highly regulated and expensive to enter industry that keeps new players out. Why is SpaceX ahead of EU aerospace companies? >Why is the leading music streaming provider Swedish (Spotify)? Spotify wasn't even profitable until recently and only made it where it is today, due to to massive capital investments form the US, not from EU investors. >Why are there so many fintechs which are a decade ahead of US counterparts Are they also ahead in earnings/profits too? Because you fund welfare with taxes on profits and on wages. You can't tax innovations that bring you no money. That's where While you keep blabbering on about Airbus, Monzo and Spotify , have a look at the top 100 companies in the world by market cap and see how many are from the EU and how many from the US and that's case closed. AIrbus, Spotify, etc are the rare exceptions, not the norm for Europe.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > Why is SpaceX ahead of EU aerospace companies? “A system of non-competition clauses enforced by the European Space Agency’s (ESA) workforce suppliers is allegedly trapping aerospace professionals who work at ESA’s facilities across Europe in a professional dead-end street” [1]. Europe is absolutely riddled with this crap, and it tends to come top down from the EU. https://arstechnica.com/space/2024/12/esa-workers-face-a-maze-of-non-compete-clauses-and-service-contracts/ https://arstechnica.com/space/2024/12/esa-workers-face-a-maz...
- m4rtink 2y ago
  Well, not many viable orbitial launch sectors in continental Europe - that by itself is already a blocker. :P And arguably USA was also quite lucky to end up with SpaceX, given how many traditionalists in the industry were so full of "this can't be done!". :P
RestlessMind 2y ago
> Really, all major technological innovations? Here is the data: https://www.voronoiapp.com/markets/-US-vs-European-Stock-Market-Capitalization-Historic-31-Ratio-Reached-in-Q3-2024-2882 https://www.voronoiapp.com/markets/-US-vs-European-Stock-Mar... If Europe is so innovative, why is US to EU stock market cap ratio is on a consistent upward swing by since mid 2000's?