8 ms·

The ambiguous witness of Dietrich Bonhoeffer (2014)

72 points by Pamar 2y ago

robertlagrant 2y ago
There is a brand new book on Bonhoeffer[0] out! [0] https://www.baylorpress.com/9781481321679/dietrich-bonhoefferthe-last-eight-days https://www.baylorpress.com/9781481321679/dietrich-bonhoeffe...
- DHPersonal 2y ago
  There's also a new film. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonhoeffer_(film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonhoeffer_(film)
  - crooked-v 2y ago
    That film is about as much based on truth as those "based on a true story" horror movies.
    - DHPersonal 2y ago
      I originally linked to the “Controversies” section but felt that perhaps that would show my bias. ;)
  - behringer 2y ago
    I quite enjoyed the ad at the end of the movie. Really hope that doesn't catch on.
ramesh31 2y ago
One of the very best episodes of In Our Time: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/b0bkpjns https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/b0bkpjns
- noneeeed 2y ago
  I love In Our Time so much. I often wonder who, if anyone, could take over from Melvin when he's gone.
- drcwpl 2y ago
  Brilliant, thank you so much
giraffe_lady 2y ago
> Strictly speaking, Bonhoeffer did not die a martyr; he was executed not for practicing his faith but for abetting attempted murder. I don't think there's a western equivalent but in the eastern churches this is a passion bearer. He's widely admired and informally commemorated. Like the article said he is influential across very different strands of christianity. > In a situation of profound moral dislocation, there was no escaping complicity in evil. Violent resistance or tacit acceptance of monstrous cruelty: There was guilt either way. In the end Bonhoeffer chose to sin for the sake of righteousness. His essay exploring that specific contradiction, written in prison, is one of the most useful and interesting works of christian writing I've ever come across. The article glosses over it probably because of writing for a secular audience, but what he was specifically hung up on was the use of children as messengers in the resistance movement he was involved in. Some of the children would inevitably be caught, tortured, and killed. Possibly many of them if the plot were severely compromised. That's what he was weighing against his need to oppose the nazis. In the end he decided to participate and trust in forgiveness if it was necessary, a decision so self-assuredly childlike I marvel at its strength. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passion_bearer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passion_bearer
- paxcoder 2y ago
  The Catholic Church teaches that we cannot do evil so that good may come out of it. It cannot be the means as in abortion. It could only be tolerated as an undesirable consequence of a good act such as self-defense. But unless one is in immediate danger from the agressor, I do not see how one can use deadly force. Whether the partisan action is legitimate self-defense I cannot say, I didn't actually look into this, but the disposition of treating whst you believe is a sin as a good essentially, and hoping for forgiveness without repentance, that is evil.
  - giraffe_lady 2y ago
    Bonhoeffer wasn't roman catholic and neither am I. He wasn't hoping for forgiveness without repentance. He was expecting, knowing that he would need to repent for something but not able to determine the correct course. He chose to trust in god's mercy, and the forgiveness of the people hurt by his actions. Copied from my other comment so you see it: Contemporary Theology Understander: We cannot do evil so that good may come of it ... that is evil. Big Brother D, unable to escape the conclusion that he must kill nazis: Lord Jesus Christ have mercy on me, a sinner.
bloomingeek 2y ago
Is history repeating itself in the evangelical church today? Instead of doctrines and creeds, has it become politics and power? Bonhoeffer went against the churches of his day because the Jesus of the bible wasn't being followed. Today it's the "warrior" Jesus that's being touted, one who never existed. When politics and power take over any Christian entity, it always led to disaster.
- devjab 2y ago
  Jesus has absolutely existed as a “warrior” figure. Even in the bible you’ll find some rather “warrior” like descriptions in places like Matthew 10:34, Luke 22:36, Luke 12:51 and so on. Mostly though Jesus has been what Jesus needed to be. When Christianity was being introduced to Scandinavia where in from, the church sold Jesus as a warrior God similar to Thor. Jesus remained that way until the late Middle Ages, which is where the first accounts of the self-sacrifice begin to enter our history. Religion isn’t static, it reflects its followers and the society it exists in. Those three parts of the bible I mentioned earlier are a good example. If you look them up in various bible versions you’ll find very different ways to word them. In some they are extremely “warrior” like, in others the word “sword” is not even mentioned.
  - giraffe_lady 2y ago
    > Jesus remained that way until the late Middle Ages, which is where the first accounts of the self-sacrifice begin to enter our history. In scandinavia you mean? Even still I find that surprising. Gregory of Nyssa, Basil of Caesarea, and John Chrysostom for example wrote on this subject in the fourth century and were all incredibly well known among early christians and through the middle ages. Some very early detractors of christianity latched onto the weakness and submissiveness of Jesus as being incompatible with their contemporary ideal of manly virtue. Influential early christians like the ones I mentioned accepted that assessment and used it to form the theological foundations of self-sacrifice that have always been present in christianity. Certainly the warrior-figure conception has always been there as well, it has never been purely one or the other. And it's definitely true that that element has had more emphasis in certain times and places. But, not knowing anything about them, I find it very unlikely that scandinavian christians would have been ignorant of this entire, extremely significant, branch of christian thought.
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brcmthrowaway 2y ago
Was he actually plotting against Hitler, or are those trumped up charges?
- reducesuffering 2y ago
  My question also, as I thought the evidence was slim and inconclusive. Would really be something if you make a "true" movie about someone's involvement in a plot that didn't happen and half the movie was completely fiction.
- plorg 2y ago
  So far as I have ever seen he might have acted as a courier between some of the intelligence officers involved in that particular attempt, which might have been as little as transporting a parcel in the course of his existing travels.
reagle 2y ago
What's so complicated about his legacy? I read the article and don't see it.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- slibhb 2y ago
  I don't know if it's explicitly Christian, but New Criterion is quite right wing. From that perspective, Bonhoeffer would be controversial due to his ecumenicalism and radical theology.
- ergotux 2y ago
  [dead]
jac2z3 2y ago
Biographies are a waste of time in the age of Networks. Bonhoeffer, at the end of the day, belonged to a very weak network in terms of power. It doesn't matter what people get out of his story if they belong to very weak networks too.
- robbiep 2y ago
  ‘It is not useful to try and understand the world or other peoples perspectives and lives (and revisions thereof, ie the process of recording history) because all that matters is power’
NotCamelCase 2y ago
That was a lengthy, but nice article/review about someone that I didn't know of before. Not strictly similar, but this brings to my mind Graham Greene's masterpiece, The Power and the Glory, and his 'whisky priest'. Easily one of the best novels that I've ever read, so highly recommended to give it a look.
drcwpl 2y ago
This is a great write up. In a recent post about Stupidity being our biggest threat I wrote about Bonhoeffer and his message. “Against stupidity we are defenseless.” ~ Dietrich Bonhoeffer https://onepercentrule.substack.com/p/stupidity-our-biggest-threat https://onepercentrule.substack.com/p/stupidity-our-biggest-...

72 points by Pamar 2y ago

There is a brand new book on Bonhoeffer[0] out! [0] https://www.baylorpress.com/9781481321679/dietrich-bonhoefferthe-last-eight-days https://www.baylorpress.com/9781481321679/dietrich-bonhoeffe...

DHPersonal 2y ago
There's also a new film. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonhoeffer_(film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonhoeffer_(film)
- crooked-v 2y ago
  That film is about as much based on truth as those "based on a true story" horror movies.
  - DHPersonal 2y ago
    I originally linked to the “Controversies” section but felt that perhaps that would show my bias. ;)
- behringer 2y ago
  I quite enjoyed the ad at the end of the movie. Really hope that doesn't catch on.

ramesh31 2y ago

One of the very best episodes of In Our Time: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/b0bkpjns https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/b0bkpjns

noneeeed 2y ago
I love In Our Time so much. I often wonder who, if anyone, could take over from Melvin when he's gone.
drcwpl 2y ago
Brilliant, thank you so much

giraffe_lady 2y ago

> Strictly speaking, Bonhoeffer did not die a martyr; he was executed not for practicing his faith but for abetting attempted murder. I don't think there's a western equivalent but in the eastern churches this is a passion bearer. He's widely admired and informally commemorated. Like the article said he is influential across very different strands of christianity. > In a situation of profound moral dislocation, there was no escaping complicity in evil. Violent resistance or tacit acceptance of monstrous cruelty: There was guilt either way. In the end Bonhoeffer chose to sin for the sake of righteousness. His essay exploring that specific contradiction, written in prison, is one of the most useful and interesting works of christian writing I've ever come across. The article glosses over it probably because of writing for a secular audience, but what he was specifically hung up on was the use of children as messengers in the resistance movement he was involved in. Some of the children would inevitably be caught, tortured, and killed. Possibly many of them if the plot were severely compromised. That's what he was weighing against his need to oppose the nazis. In the end he decided to participate and trust in forgiveness if it was necessary, a decision so self-assuredly childlike I marvel at its strength. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passion_bearer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passion_bearer

paxcoder 2y ago
The Catholic Church teaches that we cannot do evil so that good may come out of it. It cannot be the means as in abortion. It could only be tolerated as an undesirable consequence of a good act such as self-defense. But unless one is in immediate danger from the agressor, I do not see how one can use deadly force. Whether the partisan action is legitimate self-defense I cannot say, I didn't actually look into this, but the disposition of treating whst you believe is a sin as a good essentially, and hoping for forgiveness without repentance, that is evil.
- giraffe_lady 2y ago
  Bonhoeffer wasn't roman catholic and neither am I. He wasn't hoping for forgiveness without repentance. He was expecting, knowing that he would need to repent for something but not able to determine the correct course. He chose to trust in god's mercy, and the forgiveness of the people hurt by his actions. Copied from my other comment so you see it: Contemporary Theology Understander: We cannot do evil so that good may come of it ... that is evil. Big Brother D, unable to escape the conclusion that he must kill nazis: Lord Jesus Christ have mercy on me, a sinner.

bloomingeek 2y ago

Is history repeating itself in the evangelical church today? Instead of doctrines and creeds, has it become politics and power? Bonhoeffer went against the churches of his day because the Jesus of the bible wasn't being followed. Today it's the "warrior" Jesus that's being touted, one who never existed. When politics and power take over any Christian entity, it always led to disaster.

devjab 2y ago
Jesus has absolutely existed as a “warrior” figure. Even in the bible you’ll find some rather “warrior” like descriptions in places like Matthew 10:34, Luke 22:36, Luke 12:51 and so on. Mostly though Jesus has been what Jesus needed to be. When Christianity was being introduced to Scandinavia where in from, the church sold Jesus as a warrior God similar to Thor. Jesus remained that way until the late Middle Ages, which is where the first accounts of the self-sacrifice begin to enter our history. Religion isn’t static, it reflects its followers and the society it exists in. Those three parts of the bible I mentioned earlier are a good example. If you look them up in various bible versions you’ll find very different ways to word them. In some they are extremely “warrior” like, in others the word “sword” is not even mentioned.
- giraffe_lady 2y ago
  > Jesus remained that way until the late Middle Ages, which is where the first accounts of the self-sacrifice begin to enter our history. In scandinavia you mean? Even still I find that surprising. Gregory of Nyssa, Basil of Caesarea, and John Chrysostom for example wrote on this subject in the fourth century and were all incredibly well known among early christians and through the middle ages. Some very early detractors of christianity latched onto the weakness and submissiveness of Jesus as being incompatible with their contemporary ideal of manly virtue. Influential early christians like the ones I mentioned accepted that assessment and used it to form the theological foundations of self-sacrifice that have always been present in christianity. Certainly the warrior-figure conception has always been there as well, it has never been purely one or the other. And it's definitely true that that element has had more emphasis in certain times and places. But, not knowing anything about them, I find it very unlikely that scandinavian christians would have been ignorant of this entire, extremely significant, branch of christian thought.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

brcmthrowaway 2y ago

Was he actually plotting against Hitler, or are those trumped up charges?

reducesuffering 2y ago
My question also, as I thought the evidence was slim and inconclusive. Would really be something if you make a "true" movie about someone's involvement in a plot that didn't happen and half the movie was completely fiction.
plorg 2y ago
So far as I have ever seen he might have acted as a courier between some of the intelligence officers involved in that particular attempt, which might have been as little as transporting a parcel in the course of his existing travels.

reagle 2y ago

What's so complicated about his legacy? I read the article and don't see it.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
slibhb 2y ago
I don't know if it's explicitly Christian, but New Criterion is quite right wing. From that perspective, Bonhoeffer would be controversial due to his ecumenicalism and radical theology.
ergotux 2y ago
[dead]

jac2z3 2y ago

Biographies are a waste of time in the age of Networks. Bonhoeffer, at the end of the day, belonged to a very weak network in terms of power. It doesn't matter what people get out of his story if they belong to very weak networks too.

robbiep 2y ago
‘It is not useful to try and understand the world or other peoples perspectives and lives (and revisions thereof, ie the process of recording history) because all that matters is power’

NotCamelCase 2y ago

That was a lengthy, but nice article/review about someone that I didn't know of before. Not strictly similar, but this brings to my mind Graham Greene's masterpiece, The Power and the Glory, and his 'whisky priest'. Easily one of the best novels that I've ever read, so highly recommended to give it a look.

drcwpl 2y ago

This is a great write up. In a recent post about Stupidity being our biggest threat I wrote about Bonhoeffer and his message. “Against stupidity we are defenseless.” ~ Dietrich Bonhoeffer https://onepercentrule.substack.com/p/stupidity-our-biggest-threat https://onepercentrule.substack.com/p/stupidity-our-biggest-...