3 ms·

The Tragedy of Stafford Beer (2023)

57 points by anigbrowl 2y ago

ggm 2y ago
The tragedy of a declining impact from operations research continues to annoy me and I mention it whenever I think contextually, it makes sense. Usually when people trivialise complex decision points across non related competing pressures and goals but talk as if some (false) dichotomous choice exist. I didn't do O/R but family members did at Royal Holloway and some friends I met online, from Cardiff. I have used some of the online decision support tools as a rank amateur. It feels like a specialisation joining stats over computer science and information management, with links to process design, process control, systems description and structural understanding of complex systems and processes. The intersection of O/R, computing and socialism (state planning) is fascinating. I don't personally see Beer as a tragic figure. He made conscious choices. Allende and all of Chile suffered the consequences of violent opposition to the planning.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
asplake 2y ago
Re the viable system model, I can recommend Dan Davis, The Unaccountability Machine, which also touches on the Allende story, and Patrick Hoverstadt, The Fractal Organisation. My own VSM-inspired book with a modern complexity lens will be published next year.
- libraryofbabel 2y ago
  Seconding the recommendation of The Unaccountability Machine; if anyone wants a taster of the book, patio11 did a great episode of his Complex Systems podcast where he interviews the author about it: https://www.complexsystemspodcast.com/episodes/dan-davies-organizations-fraud/ https://www.complexsystemspodcast.com/episodes/dan-davies-or...
  - xnorswap 2y ago
    Apparently included in spotify premium too, I'll add that to my list, thank you.
  - 1oooqooq 2y ago
    Complex Systems with Patrick McKenzie (patio11): Balancing control and chaos: cybernetics, fraud, and modern organizations with Dan Davies Episode webpage: https://www.complexsystemspodcast.com/episodes/dan-davies-organizations-fraud/ https://www.complexsystemspodcast.com/episodes/dan-davies-or... Media file: https://chrt.fm/track/993DGA/media.transistor.fm/003b6520/a84bd885.mp3 https://chrt.fm/track/993DGA/media.transistor.fm/003b6520/a8...
- igorkraw 2y ago
  can one preorder your book?
  - asplake 2y ago
    Find me on LinkedIn (a hop or two from my profile page here) and I’ll give you early access if you’re up for giving some feedback
- mehh 2y ago
  Problem with VSM, is where is the practical evidence of it working, if it's so great surely there would be more uptake of it? I mean it sounds like a reasonable model, I'm sure there is a lot of nuance to it, but getting it up and running at an existing enterprise would be a very difficult to do, and at great risk without some solid case studies showing significant ROI.
fallinditch 2y ago
Fascinating how Beer's radical vision was both so ahead of its time and fundamentally constrained by the technological limitations of the 1970s. Imagine what he could have done with today's distributed systems and real-time data processing. The tragedy isn't that Cybersyn failed, but that we're still catching up to his core insights about organizational complexity.
stafford_beer 2y ago
I agree, this guy gets it
qrian 2y ago
I tried to read many papers of Stafford Beer and cybernetics to parse some insights on complex systems to use in modern days but failed. Project Cybersyn was just a dashboard (which was revolutionary back then of course). Viable System Model was just another systems engineering diagram, which only has meaning to those who are deep into that field. At least I got 'The purpose of a system is what it does' stuck in my head.
- gweinberg 2y ago
  I don't think that's true though. Isn't the purpose what it's intended to do, not what it actually does?
  - pmichaud 2y ago
    The point of the aphorism is specifically to dispel the notion that the straightforward definition of “purpose” is correct here.
    - PittleyDunkin 2y ago
      Why not just use the correct word? It seems weird to drag in an unrelated term just to redefine it. The word "purpose" divorced from intent seems to only have the utility of confusing the reader/audience.
      - Ma8ee 2y ago
        What is the “correct” word?
        PittleyDunkin 2y ago
        ...presumably not "purpose"? > that the straightforward definition of “purpose” is correct here.
        pessimizer 2y ago
wkyleg 2y ago
The Counterfactuals of his ideas are very interesting. Chilean socialism didn't work (just ignoring the coup, it couldn't actually run the economy), but the reasons why it failed, or in other forms could have worked bear consideration. In short, it failed for the same reasons central planning tends to, considering modern understandings of complexity theory and ideas suggested in books such as Seeing Like A State. Just having a dashboard and greater access to information is still subject to the same forms of hubris as is general central planning, even if these shortcomings are better anticipated. Yet, many of the innovations in this project bare similarity to how large enterprises CAN run will, such as with ERP and Business Analytics in the private sector, and modern intelligence and command and control systems in the military. So in all, they didn't completely work, but in the way is ideas did work they were very early.
- Earw0rm 2y ago
  Winners write the history books. There's whether or not a system fails, and there's who it fails for. Because we can all see a heck of a lot of fail in today's system, but those failing or being failed don't tend to get much of a platform to write about it.
29athrowaway 2y ago
Today you have Manufacturing Execution Systems integrated with other software. It is equivalent to Stafford Beer's vision but limited to one company and without the nice scifi room.
dang 2y ago
Related. Others? Stafford Beer's Cybernetic Synergy Operations Room: “You'll Be Free Hacker” - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37248676 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37248676 - Aug 2023 (1 comment) Project Cybersyn - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34486062 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34486062 - Jan 2023 (2 comments) There were almost two internets. Then, the CIA destroyed one - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32538322 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32538322 - Aug 2022 (71 comments) Project Cybersyn and the Origins of the Big Data Nation (2014) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29930098 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29930098 - Jan 2022 (39 comments) Project Cybersyn - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24764727 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24764727 - Oct 2020 (114 comments) Project Cybersyn (2016) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24443238 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24443238 - Sept 2020 (8 comments) Project Cybersyn - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23343929 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23343929 - May 2020 (1 comment) Cybersyn and Allende’s Semi-Automated Luxury Socialism - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21673423 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21673423 - Dec 2019 (105 comments) Project Cybersyn - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19487476 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19487476 - March 2019 (1 comment) Project Cybersyn - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19182538 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19182538 - Feb 2019 (1 comment) Project Cybersyn: Socialism Through Cybernetics - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12641425 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12641425 - Oct 2016 (58 comments) The Socialist Origins of Big Data (2014) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9052163 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9052163 - Feb 2015 (16 comments) Project Cybersyn and the origins of the Big Data nation - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8417882 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8417882 - Oct 2014 (13 comments) Project Cybersyn (1971) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7398245 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7398245 - March 2014 (36 comments) Nineteen Seventy three: Stafford Beer and his Chilean brew "Cybersyn" - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6037276 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6037276 - July 2013 (1 comment) Project Cybersyn, a 1971-73 Chilean Experiment in Computer-Assisted Economy - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4682951 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4682951 - Oct 2012 (65 comments) Computer-controlled socialist economy gets destroyed on 9/11... 1973 - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3054018 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3054018 - Sept 2011 (8 comments) Project Cybersyn - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1639149 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1639149 - Aug 2010 (3 comments) Project Cybersyn: real-time computer control of a planned economy (1970-1973) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1190508 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1190508 - March 2010 (33 comments)
bilater 2y ago
Disappointed in this article. I was hoping to get some introduction to Beers methods especially compared to naive centralized planning but its mostly about how Beer didnt live up to his potential.
Suppafly 2y ago
These comments make a little more sense once you realize that Stafford Beer is a person's name.

57 points by anigbrowl 2y ago

ggm 2y ago

The tragedy of a declining impact from operations research continues to annoy me and I mention it whenever I think contextually, it makes sense. Usually when people trivialise complex decision points across non related competing pressures and goals but talk as if some (false) dichotomous choice exist. I didn't do O/R but family members did at Royal Holloway and some friends I met online, from Cardiff. I have used some of the online decision support tools as a rank amateur. It feels like a specialisation joining stats over computer science and information management, with links to process design, process control, systems description and structural understanding of complex systems and processes. The intersection of O/R, computing and socialism (state planning) is fascinating. I don't personally see Beer as a tragic figure. He made conscious choices. Allende and all of Chile suffered the consequences of violent opposition to the planning.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

asplake 2y ago

Re the viable system model, I can recommend Dan Davis, The Unaccountability Machine, which also touches on the Allende story, and Patrick Hoverstadt, The Fractal Organisation. My own VSM-inspired book with a modern complexity lens will be published next year.

libraryofbabel 2y ago
Seconding the recommendation of The Unaccountability Machine; if anyone wants a taster of the book, patio11 did a great episode of his Complex Systems podcast where he interviews the author about it: https://www.complexsystemspodcast.com/episodes/dan-davies-organizations-fraud/ https://www.complexsystemspodcast.com/episodes/dan-davies-or...
- xnorswap 2y ago
  Apparently included in spotify premium too, I'll add that to my list, thank you.
- 1oooqooq 2y ago
  Complex Systems with Patrick McKenzie (patio11): Balancing control and chaos: cybernetics, fraud, and modern organizations with Dan Davies Episode webpage: https://www.complexsystemspodcast.com/episodes/dan-davies-organizations-fraud/ https://www.complexsystemspodcast.com/episodes/dan-davies-or... Media file: https://chrt.fm/track/993DGA/media.transistor.fm/003b6520/a84bd885.mp3 https://chrt.fm/track/993DGA/media.transistor.fm/003b6520/a8...
igorkraw 2y ago
can one preorder your book?
- asplake 2y ago
  Find me on LinkedIn (a hop or two from my profile page here) and I’ll give you early access if you’re up for giving some feedback
mehh 2y ago
Problem with VSM, is where is the practical evidence of it working, if it's so great surely there would be more uptake of it? I mean it sounds like a reasonable model, I'm sure there is a lot of nuance to it, but getting it up and running at an existing enterprise would be a very difficult to do, and at great risk without some solid case studies showing significant ROI.

fallinditch 2y ago

Fascinating how Beer's radical vision was both so ahead of its time and fundamentally constrained by the technological limitations of the 1970s. Imagine what he could have done with today's distributed systems and real-time data processing. The tragedy isn't that Cybersyn failed, but that we're still catching up to his core insights about organizational complexity.

stafford_beer 2y ago

I agree, this guy gets it

qrian 2y ago

I tried to read many papers of Stafford Beer and cybernetics to parse some insights on complex systems to use in modern days but failed. Project Cybersyn was just a dashboard (which was revolutionary back then of course). Viable System Model was just another systems engineering diagram, which only has meaning to those who are deep into that field. At least I got 'The purpose of a system is what it does' stuck in my head.

gweinberg 2y ago
I don't think that's true though. Isn't the purpose what it's intended to do, not what it actually does?
- pmichaud 2y ago
  The point of the aphorism is specifically to dispel the notion that the straightforward definition of “purpose” is correct here.
  - PittleyDunkin 2y ago
    Why not just use the correct word? It seems weird to drag in an unrelated term just to redefine it. The word "purpose" divorced from intent seems to only have the utility of confusing the reader/audience.
    - Ma8ee 2y ago
      What is the “correct” word?
      - PittleyDunkin 2y ago
        ...presumably not "purpose"? > that the straightforward definition of “purpose” is correct here.
        pessimizer 2y ago

wkyleg 2y ago

The Counterfactuals of his ideas are very interesting. Chilean socialism didn't work (just ignoring the coup, it couldn't actually run the economy), but the reasons why it failed, or in other forms could have worked bear consideration. In short, it failed for the same reasons central planning tends to, considering modern understandings of complexity theory and ideas suggested in books such as Seeing Like A State. Just having a dashboard and greater access to information is still subject to the same forms of hubris as is general central planning, even if these shortcomings are better anticipated. Yet, many of the innovations in this project bare similarity to how large enterprises CAN run will, such as with ERP and Business Analytics in the private sector, and modern intelligence and command and control systems in the military. So in all, they didn't completely work, but in the way is ideas did work they were very early.

Earw0rm 2y ago
Winners write the history books. There's whether or not a system fails, and there's who it fails for. Because we can all see a heck of a lot of fail in today's system, but those failing or being failed don't tend to get much of a platform to write about it.

29athrowaway 2y ago

Today you have Manufacturing Execution Systems integrated with other software. It is equivalent to Stafford Beer's vision but limited to one company and without the nice scifi room.

dang 2y ago

Related. Others? Stafford Beer's Cybernetic Synergy Operations Room: “You'll Be Free Hacker” - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37248676 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37248676 - Aug 2023 (1 comment) Project Cybersyn - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34486062 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34486062 - Jan 2023 (2 comments) There were almost two internets. Then, the CIA destroyed one - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32538322 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32538322 - Aug 2022 (71 comments) Project Cybersyn and the Origins of the Big Data Nation (2014) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29930098 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29930098 - Jan 2022 (39 comments) Project Cybersyn - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24764727 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24764727 - Oct 2020 (114 comments) Project Cybersyn (2016) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24443238 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24443238 - Sept 2020 (8 comments) Project Cybersyn - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23343929 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23343929 - May 2020 (1 comment) Cybersyn and Allende’s Semi-Automated Luxury Socialism - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21673423 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21673423 - Dec 2019 (105 comments) Project Cybersyn - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19487476 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19487476 - March 2019 (1 comment) Project Cybersyn - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19182538 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19182538 - Feb 2019 (1 comment) Project Cybersyn: Socialism Through Cybernetics - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12641425 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12641425 - Oct 2016 (58 comments) The Socialist Origins of Big Data (2014) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9052163 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9052163 - Feb 2015 (16 comments) Project Cybersyn and the origins of the Big Data nation - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8417882 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8417882 - Oct 2014 (13 comments) Project Cybersyn (1971) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7398245 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7398245 - March 2014 (36 comments) Nineteen Seventy three: Stafford Beer and his Chilean brew "Cybersyn" - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6037276 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6037276 - July 2013 (1 comment) Project Cybersyn, a 1971-73 Chilean Experiment in Computer-Assisted Economy - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4682951 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4682951 - Oct 2012 (65 comments) Computer-controlled socialist economy gets destroyed on 9/11... 1973 - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3054018 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3054018 - Sept 2011 (8 comments) Project Cybersyn - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1639149 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1639149 - Aug 2010 (3 comments) Project Cybersyn: real-time computer control of a planned economy (1970-1973) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1190508 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1190508 - March 2010 (33 comments)

bilater 2y ago

Disappointed in this article. I was hoping to get some introduction to Beers methods especially compared to naive centralized planning but its mostly about how Beer didnt live up to his potential.

Suppafly 2y ago

These comments make a little more sense once you realize that Stafford Beer is a person's name.