4 ms·

I would say it's more like the American people are so propagandized in favor of free markets and enterprises and so poisoned at the notion of the Government doi

I would say it's more like the American people are so propagandized in favor of free markets and enterprises and so poisoned at the notion of the Government doing literally anything that they utterly don't care about how thoroughly and completely our freedoms have been subsumed by capital interests, as long as they aren't "big government me no like." Government death panels? Orwellian, literally 1984, communist, socialist. Your insurance company refusing to cover your cancer treatment? Well that's the free market bub, can't argue with it. Sorry you're gonna die. Like I'm being hyperbolic, sure, but I am being that hyperbolic?

whimsicalism 2y ago
You can always pay out of pocket for healthcare. "Government death panels" are death panels because it is illegal to seek any other care/recourse
- llamaimperative 2y ago
  There was never any proposal for any system that bans people from paying for their own care :| You’ve been duped.
  - whimsicalism 2y ago
    if there is a cancer treatment that is covered by Canadian Medicare but the government chooses not to cover you for whatever reason (world is in triage, etc. etc.), you cannot pay out of pocket for that care.
    - treyd 2y ago
      You would also be free to travel to another country to pay for that care.
      - whimsicalism 2y ago
        right, because it is illegal to pay for care in Canada outside of the system. i didn't say that Canada had some global anti-private care enforcement power
    - janalsncm 2y ago
      Unfamiliar with Canadian healthcare but I can’t find anything to back that up. This link says you can buy private insurance to cover what isn’t covered by their public option: https://canadianvisa.org/blog/immigration/are-you-covered-how-does-healthcare-in-canada-work https://canadianvisa.org/blog/immigration/are-you-covered-ho... If the services aren’t available to anyone due to resource issues that’s not the same as a death panel deciding you’re simply not worth covering. If there is a shortage, resources have to be allocated somehow whether or not there is a public option.
      - whimsicalism 2y ago
        Which isn’t available for some people under the public option - if it is ever covered by Canada Medicare, then it is illegal to pay privately. > If the services aren’t available to anyone due to resource issues that’s not the same as a death panel deciding you’re simply not worth covering. Resource issues because they don’t have the funding to pay for additional care of this type. Allowing private funding pushes the demand curve out and increases quantity supplied of the scarce resource. Your link does nothing to disprove the scenario I am describing because I was describing a covered cancer procedure that the govt can use discretion to block you from purchasing in Canada.
        janalsncm 2y ago
        In any system with a limited resource you will need some way to triage care and allocate it appropriately. In a private system, those with money can prioritize themselves over those without it. In the US this results in huge numbers of people who lack basic care, and a small group of people who can pay large sums for care with diminishing returns. Consequently, Americans live shorter lives than Canadians. What you are describing is a law that prevents a person from paying to skip other people in line. It seems like a pretty good idea to me.
        whimsicalism 2y ago
        we long ago figured out that queues, price caps, and shortages are a very bad system of delivering resources to people. i don’t understand the insistence that we do the same for the most life saving resources of all. regardless, we have moved on to this argument because the original point is absolutely true: public systems intrinsically make it illegal to seek care out of the system. https://globalnews.ca/news/10118619/bc-cancer-agency-wait-times-surgery-united-states/ https://globalnews.ca/news/10118619/bc-cancer-agency-wait-ti...
- treyd 2y ago
  There is no such thing as "government death panels" under any proposed universal healthcare system.
  - Onavo 2y ago
    Je suis Alfie Evans, Charlie Gard, Archie Battersbee.
    - tourmalinetaco 2y ago
      There was no “death panel” involved with Archie Battersbee though. He had a Glasgow coma level of 3, the literal lowest (which is proportional to survival odds), and didn’t even have a pulse for over 40 minutes. He was most likely dead by the time his mother found him, and was certainly dead at the hospital. If memory serves his brainstem was even beginning to suffer from necrosis before they pulled treatment.
      - grogenaut 2y ago
        For context a GCS Score of 3 is: +1 Your eyes don’t open for any reason. +1 You can't speak or make sounds. +1 You don’t move in response to pressure. So you get points for existing, and the tests can include causing pain (pinch ear, press nail bed, knuckles to chest [depending on jurisdiction]) to make someone have movement. However, while GCS of 3 is the bottom of the GCS chart, it's not the only measurement used. "Conclusions. We believe that patients with blunt head injury presenting with a GCS score of 3 should be treated aggressively. Our results showed that 50.8% of these patients survived their injury and 13.2% achieved a good functional outcome at the 6-month follow-up." - NIH My favorite part of GCS: Emergency care books say "don't worry you don't have to memorize this, you'll always have a chart", yet calculating it exactly is on 2 different US emergency care national exams.
      - Onavo 2y ago
        The point is not that there's a literal death panel, but instead the healthcare committee trampled over the rights of parents and individuals. If they want to bring their children overseas for treatment, the white coats should get the fuck out of their way. By the logic of the other commenters, "My body my choice" is only for political causes you believe in amirite?
- janalsncm 2y ago
  I have heard proposals to allow the government to compete with private insurance on the free market (the public option/Medicare for all). I have never heard a serious suggestion for the government to ban private insurance in the US. Even in “communist” China where the government negotiates drug prices, people can buy private insurance.
  - whimsicalism 2y ago
    Well it has already been implemented in Canada which is the country that most resembles us out of any
janalsncm 2y ago
Some people might be against regulating private data collection on principle, but I would imagine far more people are simply unaware of it. And even if they are, it’s pretty damn hard to opt out of, and the harms are pretty abstract. Unless you can demonstrate concrete ways in which it even inconveniences someone, it’s gonna fall pretty low on most people’s priorities.

whimsicalism 2y ago

You can always pay out of pocket for healthcare. "Government death panels" are death panels because it is illegal to seek any other care/recourse

llamaimperative 2y ago
There was never any proposal for any system that bans people from paying for their own care :| You’ve been duped.
- whimsicalism 2y ago
  if there is a cancer treatment that is covered by Canadian Medicare but the government chooses not to cover you for whatever reason (world is in triage, etc. etc.), you cannot pay out of pocket for that care.
  - treyd 2y ago
    You would also be free to travel to another country to pay for that care.
    - whimsicalism 2y ago
      right, because it is illegal to pay for care in Canada outside of the system. i didn't say that Canada had some global anti-private care enforcement power
  - janalsncm 2y ago
    Unfamiliar with Canadian healthcare but I can’t find anything to back that up. This link says you can buy private insurance to cover what isn’t covered by their public option: https://canadianvisa.org/blog/immigration/are-you-covered-how-does-healthcare-in-canada-work https://canadianvisa.org/blog/immigration/are-you-covered-ho... If the services aren’t available to anyone due to resource issues that’s not the same as a death panel deciding you’re simply not worth covering. If there is a shortage, resources have to be allocated somehow whether or not there is a public option.
    - whimsicalism 2y ago
      Which isn’t available for some people under the public option - if it is ever covered by Canada Medicare, then it is illegal to pay privately. > If the services aren’t available to anyone due to resource issues that’s not the same as a death panel deciding you’re simply not worth covering. Resource issues because they don’t have the funding to pay for additional care of this type. Allowing private funding pushes the demand curve out and increases quantity supplied of the scarce resource. Your link does nothing to disprove the scenario I am describing because I was describing a covered cancer procedure that the govt can use discretion to block you from purchasing in Canada.
      - janalsncm 2y ago
        In any system with a limited resource you will need some way to triage care and allocate it appropriately. In a private system, those with money can prioritize themselves over those without it. In the US this results in huge numbers of people who lack basic care, and a small group of people who can pay large sums for care with diminishing returns. Consequently, Americans live shorter lives than Canadians. What you are describing is a law that prevents a person from paying to skip other people in line. It seems like a pretty good idea to me.
        whimsicalism 2y ago
        we long ago figured out that queues, price caps, and shortages are a very bad system of delivering resources to people. i don’t understand the insistence that we do the same for the most life saving resources of all. regardless, we have moved on to this argument because the original point is absolutely true: public systems intrinsically make it illegal to seek care out of the system. https://globalnews.ca/news/10118619/bc-cancer-agency-wait-times-surgery-united-states/ https://globalnews.ca/news/10118619/bc-cancer-agency-wait-ti...
treyd 2y ago
There is no such thing as "government death panels" under any proposed universal healthcare system.
- Onavo 2y ago
  Je suis Alfie Evans, Charlie Gard, Archie Battersbee.
  - tourmalinetaco 2y ago
    There was no “death panel” involved with Archie Battersbee though. He had a Glasgow coma level of 3, the literal lowest (which is proportional to survival odds), and didn’t even have a pulse for over 40 minutes. He was most likely dead by the time his mother found him, and was certainly dead at the hospital. If memory serves his brainstem was even beginning to suffer from necrosis before they pulled treatment.
    - grogenaut 2y ago
      For context a GCS Score of 3 is: +1 Your eyes don’t open for any reason. +1 You can't speak or make sounds. +1 You don’t move in response to pressure. So you get points for existing, and the tests can include causing pain (pinch ear, press nail bed, knuckles to chest [depending on jurisdiction]) to make someone have movement. However, while GCS of 3 is the bottom of the GCS chart, it's not the only measurement used. "Conclusions. We believe that patients with blunt head injury presenting with a GCS score of 3 should be treated aggressively. Our results showed that 50.8% of these patients survived their injury and 13.2% achieved a good functional outcome at the 6-month follow-up." - NIH My favorite part of GCS: Emergency care books say "don't worry you don't have to memorize this, you'll always have a chart", yet calculating it exactly is on 2 different US emergency care national exams.
    - Onavo 2y ago
      The point is not that there's a literal death panel, but instead the healthcare committee trampled over the rights of parents and individuals. If they want to bring their children overseas for treatment, the white coats should get the fuck out of their way. By the logic of the other commenters, "My body my choice" is only for political causes you believe in amirite?
janalsncm 2y ago
I have heard proposals to allow the government to compete with private insurance on the free market (the public option/Medicare for all). I have never heard a serious suggestion for the government to ban private insurance in the US. Even in “communist” China where the government negotiates drug prices, people can buy private insurance.
- whimsicalism 2y ago
  Well it has already been implemented in Canada which is the country that most resembles us out of any

janalsncm 2y ago

Some people might be against regulating private data collection on principle, but I would imagine far more people are simply unaware of it. And even if they are, it’s pretty damn hard to opt out of, and the harms are pretty abstract. Unless you can demonstrate concrete ways in which it even inconveniences someone, it’s gonna fall pretty low on most people’s priorities.