4 ms·

Since the brightness seems to be the issue, the only way I his makes sense to me is: The US limits the brightness to X, the EU limits the brightness to Y, and

Since the brightness seems to be the issue, the only way I his makes sense to me is: The US limits the brightness to X, the EU limits the brightness to Y, and Y > X. Porsche could just make every car globally use X, but they’re a luxury brand so they probably try to use Y where they can, even if it is a bit of work to differentiate between markets.

tomatotomato37 2y ago
Porsche is also based in the EU so starting with a design that meets EU specs and then adjusting export models as needed is probably their procedure anyway
Symbiote 2y ago
It's a significant difference. I doubt any manufacturer would want to limit their European vehicles to the American maximum: > European lighting standards (UNECE) allow over two times the light output from high beam headlight systems as compared to the U.S. (Broertjes, 2018). U.S. compliant systems allow a vehicle maximum of 150,000 candela while European compliant systems allow a vehicle maximum of 430,000 candela (Official Journal of the European Union, 2018). This provides for gains in sight distance, but also increases the potential for glare to affect oncoming and preceding traffic when high beams are not dimmed. And > 3. European specification systems consistently provided more roadway lighting when an oncoming vehicle was approaching, or a preceding vehicle was close. > a. Based on static target illumination data, the increase in roadway lighting could be as much as 86 percent (comparison of average European specification high beam to U.S. specification low beam). https://www.aaa.com/AAA/common/AAR/files/ResearchReportEuroSpecvsUSHeadlamps.pdf https://www.aaa.com/AAA/common/AAR/files/ResearchReportEuroS... (scroll to at least page 19-20 for illuminating illustrations).
- maxerickson 2y ago
  The low beams on newer US cars are already blinding. Do people in the EU consistently behave politely and turn them off when appropriate?
  - Symbiote 2y ago
    The study is comparing "premium" headlights, which in the USA auto-lower for oncoming traffic, and in Europe auto-shade just that vehicle but leave the rest of the road fully illuminated. I don't have enough driving experience between the two countries to compare driver behaviour.
  - pmontra 2y ago
    People don't turn off low beams at night, why should they? They turn off high beams even if everybody forgets them on sometimes but that's inevitable. Low beams are getting too bright. I never turned my rear mirror into the anti glare position so often as in the last couple of years.
    - maxerickson 2y ago
      I'm not sure why you'd bother trying to converse with me if you thought I was asking about people turning off low beams at night. Plenty of people turn on their high beams and don't bother to manage them. I guess automatic dimming systems should help with that. Looking a bit, they don't necessarily default to on in US vehicles, which is likely to minimize the benefit.
      - SoftTalker 2y ago
        The auto-dim systems don't always work, either. My mother-in-law's Toyota has this feature, and it seems to work when it wants to.
        trinix912 2y ago
        Same with a 2020 Honda Civic. Those auto-dim headlights shut themselves off in a timely manner about 50% of the time.
  - mrkurt 2y ago
    Most new cars in Europe are using LED arrays that shut off specific zones based on oncoming traffic. Like a hyper specific "auto high beams" feature.
- r00fus 2y ago
  I remember when driving in the EU (France) that most cars allow you to adjust the angle of the beams, so you may have more light but it's often pointed down. Unsure if that was just the few vehicles I drove or if it's EU-wide.
  - Wonkey 2y ago
    The adjustment you’re mentioning is most likely the knob for angle adjustment which are used if driving with a heavy load in the back. Some cars has suspension which levels the car automatically, for those the adjustment isn’t necessary.
    - dingaling 2y ago
      Angle adjustment is useful even when not carrying a load. Angling the beams down onto the road at dawn and dusk provides good be-seen visibility without creating glare for other drivers. Cars without manual angle adjustment have lost that courtesy gesture and just drive around glaring all the time.
Kon-Peki 2y ago
This recall is for the high-beams. And yes, the EU allows brighter high-beams than the US. This seems to be the extent of the recall. But there are other differences between the EU and US. For example, on what the headlights are illuminating. US headlights shine more light off to the right of the vehicle than EU and I think it is due to the assumption that roadside signs are more often lit via headlights/refection in the US vs sign-mounted lighting in the EU. I think most people agree that EU regulations allow for significantly better headlights than US regulations allow. But those better headlights must be paired with an expensive adaptive system or they become terribly dangerous. If you compare "cheap car" headlights in the US vs EU they are probably very similar in performance.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
thephyber 2y ago
Brightness of two headlights is not a single floating point number. There are regulations governing the spread/angle, the minimum brightness, the maximum brightness, how much an object at X distance is illuminated, whether the angle of the beams is too bright in the vision of oncoming drivers, etc.
- mistercheph 2y ago
  and most manufacturers are guilty of dieselgate style skirting of regulations while upping the ante in the war to create the brightest most blinding headlight

tomatotomato37 2y ago

Porsche is also based in the EU so starting with a design that meets EU specs and then adjusting export models as needed is probably their procedure anyway

Symbiote 2y ago

It's a significant difference. I doubt any manufacturer would want to limit their European vehicles to the American maximum: > European lighting standards (UNECE) allow over two times the light output from high beam headlight systems as compared to the U.S. (Broertjes, 2018). U.S. compliant systems allow a vehicle maximum of 150,000 candela while European compliant systems allow a vehicle maximum of 430,000 candela (Official Journal of the European Union, 2018). This provides for gains in sight distance, but also increases the potential for glare to affect oncoming and preceding traffic when high beams are not dimmed. And > 3. European specification systems consistently provided more roadway lighting when an oncoming vehicle was approaching, or a preceding vehicle was close. > a. Based on static target illumination data, the increase in roadway lighting could be as much as 86 percent (comparison of average European specification high beam to U.S. specification low beam). https://www.aaa.com/AAA/common/AAR/files/ResearchReportEuroSpecvsUSHeadlamps.pdf https://www.aaa.com/AAA/common/AAR/files/ResearchReportEuroS... (scroll to at least page 19-20 for illuminating illustrations).

maxerickson 2y ago
The low beams on newer US cars are already blinding. Do people in the EU consistently behave politely and turn them off when appropriate?
- Symbiote 2y ago
  The study is comparing "premium" headlights, which in the USA auto-lower for oncoming traffic, and in Europe auto-shade just that vehicle but leave the rest of the road fully illuminated. I don't have enough driving experience between the two countries to compare driver behaviour.
- pmontra 2y ago
  People don't turn off low beams at night, why should they? They turn off high beams even if everybody forgets them on sometimes but that's inevitable. Low beams are getting too bright. I never turned my rear mirror into the anti glare position so often as in the last couple of years.
  - maxerickson 2y ago
    I'm not sure why you'd bother trying to converse with me if you thought I was asking about people turning off low beams at night. Plenty of people turn on their high beams and don't bother to manage them. I guess automatic dimming systems should help with that. Looking a bit, they don't necessarily default to on in US vehicles, which is likely to minimize the benefit.
    - SoftTalker 2y ago
      The auto-dim systems don't always work, either. My mother-in-law's Toyota has this feature, and it seems to work when it wants to.
      - trinix912 2y ago
        Same with a 2020 Honda Civic. Those auto-dim headlights shut themselves off in a timely manner about 50% of the time.
- mrkurt 2y ago
  Most new cars in Europe are using LED arrays that shut off specific zones based on oncoming traffic. Like a hyper specific "auto high beams" feature.
r00fus 2y ago
I remember when driving in the EU (France) that most cars allow you to adjust the angle of the beams, so you may have more light but it's often pointed down. Unsure if that was just the few vehicles I drove or if it's EU-wide.
- Wonkey 2y ago
  The adjustment you’re mentioning is most likely the knob for angle adjustment which are used if driving with a heavy load in the back. Some cars has suspension which levels the car automatically, for those the adjustment isn’t necessary.
  - dingaling 2y ago
    Angle adjustment is useful even when not carrying a load. Angling the beams down onto the road at dawn and dusk provides good be-seen visibility without creating glare for other drivers. Cars without manual angle adjustment have lost that courtesy gesture and just drive around glaring all the time.

Kon-Peki 2y ago

This recall is for the high-beams. And yes, the EU allows brighter high-beams than the US. This seems to be the extent of the recall. But there are other differences between the EU and US. For example, on what the headlights are illuminating. US headlights shine more light off to the right of the vehicle than EU and I think it is due to the assumption that roadside signs are more often lit via headlights/refection in the US vs sign-mounted lighting in the EU. I think most people agree that EU regulations allow for significantly better headlights than US regulations allow. But those better headlights must be paired with an expensive adaptive system or they become terribly dangerous. If you compare "cheap car" headlights in the US vs EU they are probably very similar in performance.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

thephyber 2y ago

Brightness of two headlights is not a single floating point number. There are regulations governing the spread/angle, the minimum brightness, the maximum brightness, how much an object at X distance is illuminated, whether the angle of the beams is too bright in the vision of oncoming drivers, etc.

mistercheph 2y ago
and most manufacturers are guilty of dieselgate style skirting of regulations while upping the ante in the war to create the brightest most blinding headlight