4 ms·

Inscrutable, impossible-to-win appeals processes seem to go hand in hand with automated enforcement mechanisms. Otherwise the financials don't work. This may b

Inscrutable, impossible-to-win appeals processes seem to go hand in hand with automated enforcement mechanisms. Otherwise the financials don't work. This may be an area where govt needs to set some kind of standard of talking to a live human and getting a straightforward explanation of why an appeal is denied. EU will probably lead the way if it happens.

sidewndr46 2y ago
There's a toll road near me that always triple bills me. Am I really going to call and complain about $1.27 a few times a year?
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > Am I really going to call and complain about $1.27 a few times a year? If they're triple billing you, they're triple billing someone else. That's worth an attorney's time.
  - BobaFloutist 2y ago
    Right, but it's not worth the parent's time.
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > it's not worth the parent's time I’m saying it might be. Being the lead plaintiff in even a threatened class can be lucrative. That said, in their shoes, I’d write a letter to my state AG and copy my state legislative electeds and be done with it.
      - sidewndr46 2y ago
        I'm not really sure suing a bankrupt company that is immune from such procedures under state law is a good idea. What am I going to do, pursue a RICO case against them?
sidewndr46 2y ago
It's not much different from anything involving the legal system. If everyone charged with anything ranging from a fine to a criminal misdemeanor just requested either a trial or an administrative hearing, the system would vanish overnight. I did once discover that in at least one jurisdiction criminal charges were not guaranteed a jury trial, only a bench trial was given. The judge in that circumstance is the prosecutor from another nearby jurisdiction.
- suzzer99 2y ago
  At least you get to look a human being in the eye in actual court. I ran into the buzzsaw of Amazon's KDP self-publishing fraud detection bots, which decided that my Kindle was plagiarizing my paperback (duh, it's the same book). I went through a series of Kafkaesque email appeals — all denied with progressively vaguer justifications. By the final appeal, there was literally no concrete point left to even argue against, just vague wording about creating a negative experience for readers. I'm not sure a human ever looked at my case. Or if they did, they had a huge incentive to just rubber-stamp the bot's decision and move on. The whole experience was soul-crushing, and I didn't even have that much at stake compared to some. I hope the architects and implementers of this system run into something similar someday so they know how it feels. The only recourse I've ever seen work is to tweet or create a blog post and have it go viral.
- llamaimperative 2y ago
  > I did once discover that in at least one jurisdiction criminal charges were not guaranteed a jury trial, only a bench trial was given. The judge in that circumstance is the prosecutor from another nearby jurisdiction. What? In the US? Where?
  - vundercind 2y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution#Impartial_jury https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixth_Amendment_to_the_United_... TL;DR the Sixth's right to jury trial doesn't apply for criminal charges carrying less than sixth months maximum sentence—even if there are multiple such charges that may add up to more than that. Gonna go out on a limb and guess that plenty of US jurisdictions don't voluntarily pay extra money to make those jury trials if they aren't forced to.

sidewndr46 2y ago

There's a toll road near me that always triple bills me. Am I really going to call and complain about $1.27 a few times a year?

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> Am I really going to call and complain about $1.27 a few times a year? If they're triple billing you, they're triple billing someone else. That's worth an attorney's time.
- BobaFloutist 2y ago
  Right, but it's not worth the parent's time.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > it's not worth the parent's time I’m saying it might be. Being the lead plaintiff in even a threatened class can be lucrative. That said, in their shoes, I’d write a letter to my state AG and copy my state legislative electeds and be done with it.
    - sidewndr46 2y ago
      I'm not really sure suing a bankrupt company that is immune from such procedures under state law is a good idea. What am I going to do, pursue a RICO case against them?

sidewndr46 2y ago

It's not much different from anything involving the legal system. If everyone charged with anything ranging from a fine to a criminal misdemeanor just requested either a trial or an administrative hearing, the system would vanish overnight. I did once discover that in at least one jurisdiction criminal charges were not guaranteed a jury trial, only a bench trial was given. The judge in that circumstance is the prosecutor from another nearby jurisdiction.

suzzer99 2y ago
At least you get to look a human being in the eye in actual court. I ran into the buzzsaw of Amazon's KDP self-publishing fraud detection bots, which decided that my Kindle was plagiarizing my paperback (duh, it's the same book). I went through a series of Kafkaesque email appeals — all denied with progressively vaguer justifications. By the final appeal, there was literally no concrete point left to even argue against, just vague wording about creating a negative experience for readers. I'm not sure a human ever looked at my case. Or if they did, they had a huge incentive to just rubber-stamp the bot's decision and move on. The whole experience was soul-crushing, and I didn't even have that much at stake compared to some. I hope the architects and implementers of this system run into something similar someday so they know how it feels. The only recourse I've ever seen work is to tweet or create a blog post and have it go viral.
llamaimperative 2y ago
> I did once discover that in at least one jurisdiction criminal charges were not guaranteed a jury trial, only a bench trial was given. The judge in that circumstance is the prosecutor from another nearby jurisdiction. What? In the US? Where?
- vundercind 2y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution#Impartial_jury https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sixth_Amendment_to_the_United_... TL;DR the Sixth's right to jury trial doesn't apply for criminal charges carrying less than sixth months maximum sentence—even if there are multiple such charges that may add up to more than that. Gonna go out on a limb and guess that plenty of US jurisdictions don't voluntarily pay extra money to make those jury trials if they aren't forced to.