6 ms·

I’ll never understand why the recommendation is for people with no training or experience in handling wild animals whatsoever is to expect them to catch a poten

I’ll never understand why the recommendation is for people with no training or experience in handling wild animals whatsoever is to expect them to catch a potentially rabid bat instead of just vaccinating them. Even if someone manages to catch the bat and it tests negative for rabies, then what? What if the test isn’t 100% accurate? Would you trust it? Considering how awful and deadly the virus is, I would not care what the test result is, I’d want the vaccine. I got it about 10 years ago, it was a series of 3 shots and was no big deal. We give rabies shots to dogs and cats constantly, why do humans have to jump through hoops to get it?

zarzavat 2y ago
Whether or not to trap the bat requires some common sense specific to the situation, perhaps you can effectively trap it by closing a door for instance. However if like GP you've already trapped the bat then you should definitely not release it. The post-exposure treatment for rabies involves immunoglobulin[0], which is not always easily available especially in the kinds of places where rabies is most endemic. The vaccine alone, post-exposure, may not be sufficient. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound a cure, get vaccinated beforehand. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabies_immunoglobulin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabies_immunoglobulin
- deleted 2y ago
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- Bender 2y ago
  I've tried multiple times when I was in California to get vaccinated for rabies. Not a single doctor would consider it despite my telling them I handle bats and other critters all the time. Their excuse was that it can have really bad side effects to which I said, "well so can having rabies". A couple of the ER doctors didn't even know what rabies does so we sat there and read the CDC website for 40 minutes. I went there because I had muscle stiffness and lacked a range of motion but that had been going on longer than the incubation period so we just agreed I didn't have rabies, also ibuprofen helped which would not help for rabies. I rescued a pup that was really scared when California was on fire. I also had a few infected bats that were highly aggressive. I know that is not a good test as it can take a while. It would have been nice to get vaccinated but I was just lucky.
  - toast0 2y ago
    Chat with veternarians? I've heard they often are vaccinated, because they're at higher risk, and they may know the right words to say to get the vaccine?
    - LinuxBender 2y ago
      That's a great idea. Maybe they know of private entities that can do it outside of a hospital.
    - SoftTalker 2y ago
      Maybe they just give themselves the dog vaccine, adjusted for their body weight?
  - lazide 2y ago
    I’m sorry, but an ER doctor that doesn’t know what Rabies does?!!!?
    - LinuxBender 2y ago
      Two of them. I was also surprised given the large number of brown bats that were diagnosed as infected where I lived. It took us reading the CDC website for 40 minutes because most of the documentation talked about the "what" and not the "why". After some digging we found it. This was around 2008 in northern California.
  - HelloMcFly 2y ago
    Travel vaccine clinics are the easiest route to go for a preventative rabies vaccine.
  - zarzavat 2y ago
    That's surprising to hear a story about under-treatment in the US. In the UK rabies vaccination is easily available from pharmacies, for a fee. The nurse practitioner I saw recommended me to get the vaccine since I was travelling to a place where rabies is endemic.
thephyber 2y ago
> instead of just vaccinating them. Cost. And the low likelihood of the bat actually carrying the virus. > But while it is essential for survival, the first treatment alone can cost more than $15,000 in D.C., leaving patients with unexpected bills and medical debt. https://wamu.org/story/22/04/14/dc-rabies-treatment-cost/ https://wamu.org/story/22/04/14/dc-rabies-treatment-cost/
- conductr 2y ago
  It's American healthcare, cost is as deadly as staying alive
  - red-iron-pine 2y ago
    Presumably this is why someone just shot the CEO of UnitedHealthcare
    - conductr 2y ago
      It's sad but this is what the whole 'eat the rich' thing looks like in action. I don't know if it's my cynical nature or age, but I get a sense that generalized feeling of hope/optimism is at all time low (ok, ~century or so low) and these acts will likely increase
- CGamesPlay 2y ago
  Thats crazy. It would be cheaper to fly abroad to receive the treatment (except that the regime lasts 30 days). I had a regime in a foreign country a few years ago, total cost of injections was around $100 USD.
  - shiroiushi 2y ago
    The same is true for many non-urgent medical procedures: you're probably better off booking a flight to Europe or really any place, rather than doing it in America. Even out-of-pocket, it's frequently cheaper to fly somewhere else and do the treatment there than to do it in your own town in the US.
jvanderbot 2y ago
For anyone making it this far: if you need to catch a wild animal in your home, throw a blanket on it, then throw another blanket on that, and one more if you need to. Best to use thick quilts that block light. Moving blankets are perfect. For whatever reason almost all animals will freeze when they are entrapped but not in pain and blankets rarely will injure. I have done this one rabbits, lizards, mice, and birds.
- cma 2y ago
  I think there's no way to test the bat for rabies without them breaking open its head. That was why they had to kill that guy's squirrel recently after it bit the person who worked for the government.
  - xkqd 2y ago
    After a potential exposure myself the state’s protocol was to capture and monitor the animal. If it displayed symptoms or died, it was assumed positive for my vaccination purposes and would then be tested to confirm. If it didn’t display any symptoms or die, immunization would be held off. Apparently this depends on the animal you were exposed to and rabies incidence rates in the vector in the geographic area. In my case, the animal died 2 days later and caused quite a headache.
    - nytesky 2y ago
      They recommend getting immunoglobulin within 24 hours. Waiting 5 days seems to add risk the vaccine won’t be effective?
      - xkqd 2y ago
        That was my previous understanding too, but this was the protocol of a large healthcare system. Their logic was that only symptomatic animals can spread rabies, and once symptomatic they tend to die within a week and display obvious symptoms even earlier. I guess the risk of delaying 5 days is extremely low, or perhaps nonexistent. At least with immediately recognized contact?
akira2501 2y ago
> instead of just vaccinating them. Vaccines are for pre exposure. Google suggests the total cost of this service is between $1,500 and $3,000. Medical treatment is for post exposure. Google also suggests the total cost of this service is around $15,000 as it typically includes an ER visit. > What if the test isn’t 100% accurate? They take the animal and dissect their brain so that it is as accurate as it possibly can be. > We give rabies shots to dogs and cats constantly, why do humans have to jump through hoops to get it? Different legal standards for the quality of product and different market sizes. Your dog and cat is taking a bigger risk with the product than we expect you to. Your vaccine is inactivated virus and offers stronger protection. The animal vaccine can be a modified living virus or a recombinant vaccine and offers weaker protection. Your dog and cat is probably legally required to have one and you are not. > I got it about 10 years ago It's not a permanent vaccine, is it?
- michaelmrose 2y ago
  I suspect ones medical provider or an urgent care center could do the same thing. My Dr has fit me in same day for something quick before and an urgent care might be only a $100 copay for the visit. Also most people's deductable isn't 15k Also its basically impossible to Google medical prices in America because actual negotiated prices are normally a fraction of the cash price.
  - akira2501 2y ago
    > or an urgent care center could do the same thing. It's a lifesaving treatment. People usually don't bother themselves with frugality in either price or expertise at this point; although, I'm glad you can have this high confidence in your General Practitioner and his schedule. > Also most people's deductable isn't 15k The question is "why don't we just vaccinate people?" So while you're saying is true you're actually validating my point. The cost difference is not noticeable to most people and the cost of just the pre exposure vaccine is pretty high to begin with. > its basically impossible to Google medical prices in America No, it's entirely possible, because customers discuss these things openly and you can find those discussions. You can't establish an exact price that has any predictive power but you can establish a common range. It's not as if this is some mystery that only the Gnostics can tame.
_cs2017_ 2y ago
Because it's not enough, you still need to do post-exposure shots (or else you still have a not exactly known but reasonably high risk of death). The main benefit of pre-exposure vaccination is that if somehow you have no access to the vaccine the day of exposure, you might still have a (small?) chance of survival. This benefit is nearly zero if you live within a driving distance from a hospital. So why go through the trouble and pay $1-2k (plus more for boosters every 2-3 years) if you still need to go to the hospital after you get bitten?
- sokoloff 2y ago
  I think the (not explicitly stated) question is “why would a pervasively given rabies vaccine for humans cost $1-2k per dose?” I suspect it wouldn’t cost anywhere near that, as it doesn’t cost anywhere near that in India.
  - shiroiushi 2y ago
    >I suspect it wouldn’t cost anywhere near that, as it doesn’t cost anywhere near that in India. It absolutely can cost that much in America. I see you're not familiar with just how expensive medical treatments in America are.
  - renewiltord 2y ago
    > I suspect it wouldn’t cost anywhere near that, as it doesn’t cost anywhere near that in India. I have bad news.
  - groby_b 2y ago
    It would cost $1k-$2k per dose because in the US you can just make up a price, and profit is God.
  - wongogue 2y ago
    In public healthcare, it will cost you $3 per dose in India.
- mlyle 2y ago
  > (or else you still have a not exactly known but reasonably high risk of death) Survival in dogs with post-vaccine high-titer challenge is very, very high 5 years after vaccination-- >80%. > The main benefit of pre-exposure vaccination is that if somehow you have no access to the vaccine the day of exposure, you might still have a (small?) chance of survival. "Small" chance of survival seems pessimistic as a way to describe this. The main advantage of vaccination is that if you have an undetected bite or exposure, you are still probably okay. This is something that someone who routinely handles bats or other wildlife that may carry rabies might want. A secondary advantage is you need half as many post-exposure treatments after a known bite, which are both expensive and painful (immunoglobulin injections all around are not so fun). Also, "day of" seems like hyperbole: it is routine to wait 10 days for test results of probably-healthy animals before starting post-exposure treatment.
salawat 2y ago
>We give rabies shots to dogs and cats constantly, why do humans have to jump through hoops to get it? Because even vaccinations are not universally without risk of complication. See my last cat I had to put to sleep due to complications resulting from an injection site sarcoma as a result of just such a "trivial and routine" vaccination. So, while your flippant attitude toward the matter is noted, it is not appreciated. These things are not without risk in all cases. Bring the damn bat for testing.

zarzavat 2y ago

Whether or not to trap the bat requires some common sense specific to the situation, perhaps you can effectively trap it by closing a door for instance. However if like GP you've already trapped the bat then you should definitely not release it. The post-exposure treatment for rabies involves immunoglobulin[0], which is not always easily available especially in the kinds of places where rabies is most endemic. The vaccine alone, post-exposure, may not be sufficient. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound a cure, get vaccinated beforehand. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabies_immunoglobulin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabies_immunoglobulin

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
Bender 2y ago
I've tried multiple times when I was in California to get vaccinated for rabies. Not a single doctor would consider it despite my telling them I handle bats and other critters all the time. Their excuse was that it can have really bad side effects to which I said, "well so can having rabies". A couple of the ER doctors didn't even know what rabies does so we sat there and read the CDC website for 40 minutes. I went there because I had muscle stiffness and lacked a range of motion but that had been going on longer than the incubation period so we just agreed I didn't have rabies, also ibuprofen helped which would not help for rabies. I rescued a pup that was really scared when California was on fire. I also had a few infected bats that were highly aggressive. I know that is not a good test as it can take a while. It would have been nice to get vaccinated but I was just lucky.
- toast0 2y ago
  Chat with veternarians? I've heard they often are vaccinated, because they're at higher risk, and they may know the right words to say to get the vaccine?
  - LinuxBender 2y ago
    That's a great idea. Maybe they know of private entities that can do it outside of a hospital.
  - SoftTalker 2y ago
    Maybe they just give themselves the dog vaccine, adjusted for their body weight?
- lazide 2y ago
  I’m sorry, but an ER doctor that doesn’t know what Rabies does?!!!?
  - LinuxBender 2y ago
    Two of them. I was also surprised given the large number of brown bats that were diagnosed as infected where I lived. It took us reading the CDC website for 40 minutes because most of the documentation talked about the "what" and not the "why". After some digging we found it. This was around 2008 in northern California.
- HelloMcFly 2y ago
  Travel vaccine clinics are the easiest route to go for a preventative rabies vaccine.
- zarzavat 2y ago
  That's surprising to hear a story about under-treatment in the US. In the UK rabies vaccination is easily available from pharmacies, for a fee. The nurse practitioner I saw recommended me to get the vaccine since I was travelling to a place where rabies is endemic.

thephyber 2y ago

> instead of just vaccinating them. Cost. And the low likelihood of the bat actually carrying the virus. > But while it is essential for survival, the first treatment alone can cost more than $15,000 in D.C., leaving patients with unexpected bills and medical debt. https://wamu.org/story/22/04/14/dc-rabies-treatment-cost/ https://wamu.org/story/22/04/14/dc-rabies-treatment-cost/

conductr 2y ago
It's American healthcare, cost is as deadly as staying alive
- red-iron-pine 2y ago
  Presumably this is why someone just shot the CEO of UnitedHealthcare
  - conductr 2y ago
    It's sad but this is what the whole 'eat the rich' thing looks like in action. I don't know if it's my cynical nature or age, but I get a sense that generalized feeling of hope/optimism is at all time low (ok, ~century or so low) and these acts will likely increase
CGamesPlay 2y ago
Thats crazy. It would be cheaper to fly abroad to receive the treatment (except that the regime lasts 30 days). I had a regime in a foreign country a few years ago, total cost of injections was around $100 USD.
- shiroiushi 2y ago
  The same is true for many non-urgent medical procedures: you're probably better off booking a flight to Europe or really any place, rather than doing it in America. Even out-of-pocket, it's frequently cheaper to fly somewhere else and do the treatment there than to do it in your own town in the US.

jvanderbot 2y ago

For anyone making it this far: if you need to catch a wild animal in your home, throw a blanket on it, then throw another blanket on that, and one more if you need to. Best to use thick quilts that block light. Moving blankets are perfect. For whatever reason almost all animals will freeze when they are entrapped but not in pain and blankets rarely will injure. I have done this one rabbits, lizards, mice, and birds.

cma 2y ago
I think there's no way to test the bat for rabies without them breaking open its head. That was why they had to kill that guy's squirrel recently after it bit the person who worked for the government.
- xkqd 2y ago
  After a potential exposure myself the state’s protocol was to capture and monitor the animal. If it displayed symptoms or died, it was assumed positive for my vaccination purposes and would then be tested to confirm. If it didn’t display any symptoms or die, immunization would be held off. Apparently this depends on the animal you were exposed to and rabies incidence rates in the vector in the geographic area. In my case, the animal died 2 days later and caused quite a headache.
  - nytesky 2y ago
    They recommend getting immunoglobulin within 24 hours. Waiting 5 days seems to add risk the vaccine won’t be effective?
    - xkqd 2y ago
      That was my previous understanding too, but this was the protocol of a large healthcare system. Their logic was that only symptomatic animals can spread rabies, and once symptomatic they tend to die within a week and display obvious symptoms even earlier. I guess the risk of delaying 5 days is extremely low, or perhaps nonexistent. At least with immediately recognized contact?

akira2501 2y ago

> instead of just vaccinating them. Vaccines are for pre exposure. Google suggests the total cost of this service is between $1,500 and $3,000. Medical treatment is for post exposure. Google also suggests the total cost of this service is around $15,000 as it typically includes an ER visit. > What if the test isn’t 100% accurate? They take the animal and dissect their brain so that it is as accurate as it possibly can be. > We give rabies shots to dogs and cats constantly, why do humans have to jump through hoops to get it? Different legal standards for the quality of product and different market sizes. Your dog and cat is taking a bigger risk with the product than we expect you to. Your vaccine is inactivated virus and offers stronger protection. The animal vaccine can be a modified living virus or a recombinant vaccine and offers weaker protection. Your dog and cat is probably legally required to have one and you are not. > I got it about 10 years ago It's not a permanent vaccine, is it?

michaelmrose 2y ago
I suspect ones medical provider or an urgent care center could do the same thing. My Dr has fit me in same day for something quick before and an urgent care might be only a $100 copay for the visit. Also most people's deductable isn't 15k Also its basically impossible to Google medical prices in America because actual negotiated prices are normally a fraction of the cash price.
- akira2501 2y ago
  > or an urgent care center could do the same thing. It's a lifesaving treatment. People usually don't bother themselves with frugality in either price or expertise at this point; although, I'm glad you can have this high confidence in your General Practitioner and his schedule. > Also most people's deductable isn't 15k The question is "why don't we just vaccinate people?" So while you're saying is true you're actually validating my point. The cost difference is not noticeable to most people and the cost of just the pre exposure vaccine is pretty high to begin with. > its basically impossible to Google medical prices in America No, it's entirely possible, because customers discuss these things openly and you can find those discussions. You can't establish an exact price that has any predictive power but you can establish a common range. It's not as if this is some mystery that only the Gnostics can tame.

_cs2017_ 2y ago

Because it's not enough, you still need to do post-exposure shots (or else you still have a not exactly known but reasonably high risk of death). The main benefit of pre-exposure vaccination is that if somehow you have no access to the vaccine the day of exposure, you might still have a (small?) chance of survival. This benefit is nearly zero if you live within a driving distance from a hospital. So why go through the trouble and pay $1-2k (plus more for boosters every 2-3 years) if you still need to go to the hospital after you get bitten?

sokoloff 2y ago
I think the (not explicitly stated) question is “why would a pervasively given rabies vaccine for humans cost $1-2k per dose?” I suspect it wouldn’t cost anywhere near that, as it doesn’t cost anywhere near that in India.
- shiroiushi 2y ago
  >I suspect it wouldn’t cost anywhere near that, as it doesn’t cost anywhere near that in India. It absolutely can cost that much in America. I see you're not familiar with just how expensive medical treatments in America are.
- renewiltord 2y ago
  > I suspect it wouldn’t cost anywhere near that, as it doesn’t cost anywhere near that in India. I have bad news.
- groby_b 2y ago
  It would cost $1k-$2k per dose because in the US you can just make up a price, and profit is God.
- wongogue 2y ago
  In public healthcare, it will cost you $3 per dose in India.
mlyle 2y ago
> (or else you still have a not exactly known but reasonably high risk of death) Survival in dogs with post-vaccine high-titer challenge is very, very high 5 years after vaccination-- >80%. > The main benefit of pre-exposure vaccination is that if somehow you have no access to the vaccine the day of exposure, you might still have a (small?) chance of survival. "Small" chance of survival seems pessimistic as a way to describe this. The main advantage of vaccination is that if you have an undetected bite or exposure, you are still probably okay. This is something that someone who routinely handles bats or other wildlife that may carry rabies might want. A secondary advantage is you need half as many post-exposure treatments after a known bite, which are both expensive and painful (immunoglobulin injections all around are not so fun). Also, "day of" seems like hyperbole: it is routine to wait 10 days for test results of probably-healthy animals before starting post-exposure treatment.

salawat 2y ago

>We give rabies shots to dogs and cats constantly, why do humans have to jump through hoops to get it? Because even vaccinations are not universally without risk of complication. See my last cat I had to put to sleep due to complications resulting from an injection site sarcoma as a result of just such a "trivial and routine" vaccination. So, while your flippant attitude toward the matter is noted, it is not appreciated. These things are not without risk in all cases. Bring the damn bat for testing.