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The UK suddenly going "the foreigners don't speak our language well enough" feels quite similar to what's happening next door in the Netherlands: The latest el

by Aachen 2y ago

The UK suddenly going "the foreigners don't speak our language well enough" feels quite similar to what's happening next door in the Netherlands: The latest elections swung university policy from "do them all in English to promote international exchanges" to "revert to Dutch and make our language great again". Some 20-30% of foreign students stay in the country and the tax income they generate easily outweighs the limited subsidies they receive compared to Dutch students (or so a study said that I read some years ago, iirc it concluded we can give them the same level of subsidies no problem), plus of course the international contacts and culture exchange it promotes. The number of students that won't come to NL because they can't participate anymore (let's be real, who's going to learn this niche language in high school to the point where they can fluently work with it in classes and exams?) seems like a downturn in every way, including that our own students will be worse at using English (you learn a language by using it, not just from textbooks) I know from experience that the teachers, native students, and foreign students, all don't speak perfect English, but at least for the one I did there was an in-person intake test and, in class, it wasn't a real barrier As for the fraud that's mentioned in the article, where you pay someone else do do your coursework, that problem exists also outside of students that struggle with the language

graemep 2y ago
I think that is interesting, but the differences are that in the UK the courses are taught in English which is widely spoken, the universities make a profit on foreign students (so we are not subsidising them), and there is a high level of cheating. The last is because the problem is not that they do not have "perfect" English, but that they have English that is just not good enough to let them study in English. There are other issues. For example a lecturer teaching a course on modern slavery at University College London was removed from the course that she designed, because she had upset Chinese students by giving Chinese examples for slavery. Cultural exchange is good, but this is not a healthy version of it. Chinese students also do not usually do not mix with others so that does not encourage cultural exchange.
- Aachen 2y ago
  > and there is a high level of cheating. > [which] is because the problem is [...] they have English that is just not good enough to let them study in English. Is the cheating due to this language gap, though, or would they have cheated anyway? Evidently they have the money to travel to and live in the UK, spend tens of thousands of pounds on tuition, and pay others to do their assignments. I don't know that the group of "students" taking this approach is there for the knowledge in the first place, foreign or not That said, I'm open to the problems being different from the sudden focus on the natives' language in the Netherlands, I'm just not sure what to think when the article cites mere anecdotes (of opposing statements at that) and the argument fits great with the recent shift in voting behaviour. The article could be correct in the point it's trying to make, it's just that it's not supported or rejected by the evidence presented and both sides have ulterior motives readily available (tuition money vs. anti-foreigner rhetoric)
  - graemep 2y ago
    > Is the cheating due to this language gap, though, or would they have cheated anyway? A bit of both, most likely. If their English is not good enough to study in then they have to cheat or fail, so they should never have been admitted. Obviously cheating needs to be stopped in general, but this group of students gives universities an incentive to turn a blind eye to it. > I'm just not sure what to think when the article cites mere anecdotes (of opposing statements at that) That is the state of journalism. Lots of BBC stories are like that. > and the argument fits great with the recent shift in voting behaviour. If you mean the shift of traditional Labour areas to Conservative and vice-versa that has been happening for a long time, its just reached the point where seats start shifting in our first past the post system in recent elections. In general Labour voters have lost working class votes, and gained more affluent voters. There have been other interesting movements such as Catholics switching from Labour to Conservative, as have ethnic minorities. If you mean the performance of Reform in the last election I think that is largely because of the deep unpopularity of the last Conservative government, and the perception that Labour are no different (which the new government seems determined to prove true). While Reform is an anti-immigrant party, I do not think most of their voters are. My experience (as ethnic minority British) is that the UK is a lot less racist than it was in the 1980s - my lifetime as seen a pretty much continual decline of racism.

by Aachen 2y ago

graemep 2y ago

I think that is interesting, but the differences are that in the UK the courses are taught in English which is widely spoken, the universities make a profit on foreign students (so we are not subsidising them), and there is a high level of cheating. The last is because the problem is not that they do not have "perfect" English, but that they have English that is just not good enough to let them study in English. There are other issues. For example a lecturer teaching a course on modern slavery at University College London was removed from the course that she designed, because she had upset Chinese students by giving Chinese examples for slavery. Cultural exchange is good, but this is not a healthy version of it. Chinese students also do not usually do not mix with others so that does not encourage cultural exchange.

Aachen 2y ago
> and there is a high level of cheating. > [which] is because the problem is [...] they have English that is just not good enough to let them study in English. Is the cheating due to this language gap, though, or would they have cheated anyway? Evidently they have the money to travel to and live in the UK, spend tens of thousands of pounds on tuition, and pay others to do their assignments. I don't know that the group of "students" taking this approach is there for the knowledge in the first place, foreign or not That said, I'm open to the problems being different from the sudden focus on the natives' language in the Netherlands, I'm just not sure what to think when the article cites mere anecdotes (of opposing statements at that) and the argument fits great with the recent shift in voting behaviour. The article could be correct in the point it's trying to make, it's just that it's not supported or rejected by the evidence presented and both sides have ulterior motives readily available (tuition money vs. anti-foreigner rhetoric)
- graemep 2y ago
  > Is the cheating due to this language gap, though, or would they have cheated anyway? A bit of both, most likely. If their English is not good enough to study in then they have to cheat or fail, so they should never have been admitted. Obviously cheating needs to be stopped in general, but this group of students gives universities an incentive to turn a blind eye to it. > I'm just not sure what to think when the article cites mere anecdotes (of opposing statements at that) That is the state of journalism. Lots of BBC stories are like that. > and the argument fits great with the recent shift in voting behaviour. If you mean the shift of traditional Labour areas to Conservative and vice-versa that has been happening for a long time, its just reached the point where seats start shifting in our first past the post system in recent elections. In general Labour voters have lost working class votes, and gained more affluent voters. There have been other interesting movements such as Catholics switching from Labour to Conservative, as have ethnic minorities. If you mean the performance of Reform in the last election I think that is largely because of the deep unpopularity of the last Conservative government, and the perception that Labour are no different (which the new government seems determined to prove true). While Reform is an anti-immigrant party, I do not think most of their voters are. My experience (as ethnic minority British) is that the UK is a lot less racist than it was in the 1980s - my lifetime as seen a pretty much continual decline of racism.