5 ms·

The subtext is that the students don't return home, and some of these universities are just a way for people to get a Visa to live in the UK. International stu

The subtext is that the students don't return home, and some of these universities are just a way for people to get a Visa to live in the UK. International students also get on courses with lower grades than UK students.

yawpitch 2y ago
The subtext of the subtext you mention in your first assertion hinges on the assumption the UK is where these people eventually want to live, once they have that education. A significant number of the British don’t even want to live here, post Brexit, and neither do most of the international students I’ve met. As for the second assertion, that’s just false. I had to apply for a graduate degree as an international student before my citizenship was awarded, the course requirements were explicitly identical, the only different was vastly higher fees and proof of both funding capacity and English language proficiency.
- graemep 2y ago
  > A significant number of the British don’t even want to live here, post Brexit Strangely few of them leave. There is a lot of "grass is greener" in British pessimism about their country. > neither do most of the international students I’ve met Most do not, but most never did. Most people prefer to live in their home country (especially if they are the sort that can afford overseas fees). That said they may want a degree that is recognised internationally (e.g. they get a cheaper degree that will be recognised in the US where salaries are much higher). There are also a significant proportion who do want to stay. As someone with dual nationality the UK is my preferred place to live.
  - yawpitch 2y ago
    > Strangely few of them leave. There is a lot of "grass is greener" in British pessimism about their country. Talk to your average kid stuck in 90% of the one-time industrial towns north of London and the grass isn’t just greener… the fact they’ll never be able to afford to go doesn’t mean they wouldn’t at the drop of a hat if they could. > Most do not, but most never did There’s no obviously valid complaint about those who come here, pay international fees, maybe work a few years while paying taxes and NHS premiums, then go elsewhere or home. Come to think of it there’s very little obvious complaint about those who choose to come here legally, get an education at inflated cost to subsidize lower fees for the locals who tend not to avail themselves of them, then immigrate instead. Except, that is, from the older folk in those post-industrial towns, who don’t want to go anywhere they might have to speak foreign or eat anything but Sunday roast with proper British potatoes (that they bought from Aldi)… they seem to have a lot of less than obvious complaints.
    - graemep 2y ago
      > Talk to your average kid stuck in 90% of the one-time industrial towns north of London and the grass isn’t just greener… the fact they’ll never be able to afford to go doesn’t mean they wouldn’t at the drop of a hat if they could. Where could they go that is better? Lots of nice places abroad if you have money, but lot sof nice places in the UK if you have money. Have you lived in a former industrial town outside London? I have. Focusing on people there also breaks the tie to Brexit you mentioned earlier. These are the places where people voted for Brexit. its mostly people in the south who say they want to go abroad because of Brexit, especially affluent people who could if they would. > Except, that is, from the older folk in those post-industrial towns, who don’t want to go anywhere they might have to speak foreign or eat anything but Sunday roast with proper British potatoes (that they bought from Aldi) A rather bigoted view of people. I live in (an admittedly fairly prosperous) northern formerly industrial town and its friendly, has a (rather boring) Indian restaurant down the road. "Chinese chippies" are a long standing institution throughout the north west....
  - stevekemp 2y ago
    While the pessimism is true it's also the case that post-Brexit it is very hard for many of them to actually leave. The lack of free movement really made it hard for a lot of UK people to move to Europe.
- gadders 2y ago
  >>the assumption the UK is where these people eventually want to live "In 2022, almost 73,000 former students were issued a Graduate Visa, which allows them to live and work in the UK for two years after graduation or three years for PhD graduates. Introduced in July 2021, the new route saw high take-up and led to a large increase in the number of students extending their stay in the UK. The number of students extending their stay in the UK through the Graduate route reached a record level in 2022 and continued to increase in 2023. In the year ending 30 September 2023, around 105,000 Graduate visas were granted to main applicants" >>I had to apply for a graduate degree Thanks for your anecdote. The International Students come in via foundation years not available to local students. More money for the uni, and the international students get in with lower grades. https://www.thetimes.com/uk/article/cash-for-courses-the-foreign-students-with-low-grades-at-top-universities-pcskjb6xx https://www.thetimes.com/uk/article/cash-for-courses-the-for...
  - pjc50 2y ago
    > almost 73,000 former students were issued a Graduate Visa, which allows them to live and work in the UK for two years And what's wrong with that? These aren't overstays, they're people who've been granted visas in a perfectly above board manner.
    - gadders 2y ago
      It was in response to this up-thread: "your first assertion hinges on the assumption the UK is where these people eventually want to live, once they have that education" 73,000 want to, at least for two years.
      - yawpitch 2y ago
        Suppose I should have been clearer, perhaps that should have read “where these people eventually want to remain”, as in live for the rest of their lives, ie be immigrants instead of merely temporary expats (which should never bother a native, since they’re paying taxes during their working years without receiving benefits over their retirement years).
OkayBuddy44 2y ago
There are "colleges" that are literally just fronts for student visas. Canada just uncovered 10,000 fake student visas; the Australian government recently closed 150 colleges that don't even actually exist. All of these 'students' are now illegally in these countries, and realistically most will not be caught and deported. Perhaps the worst part is that even at the scale of this fraud, it pales in comparison to the mind-boggling number of students being legally permitted entry to these countries, most of them from India.
- andygh 2y ago
  Canada and Australia, obviously, have different compliance regimes. The expectations from the Home Office for Level 4 Visas are quite well documented and have very specific conditions that education providers must show to satisfy, e.g. the students who hold these Visas attend all their classes. A provider (University) can have their ability to sponsor Visas removed if their compliance isn't adequate. Part of the reasons Universities in the UK record attendance at all is because of the compliance regime from the Home Office. The story therefore is that these universities are inadequately complying.
- jappgar 2y ago
  Canada "uncovered" fake colleges and worker scams only after it became socially acceptable to question official immigration policies. Now that the Indian government is literally murdering Canadian citizens, it's a become a huge issue.
- gadders 2y ago
  I don't think the UK was ever as bad as Canada, but I think it could have been heading that way.
vishnugupta 2y ago
Exactly this. There’s a big money in this which cash strapped universities are naturally going to take advantage of. Employers in India, an example because I know this, don’t care much someone has a degree from UK university even if it’s a prestigious one. The single biggest factor for an Indian student to go for a graduate degree in developed country is emigration.
rcxdude 2y ago
Student visas in the UK aren't indefinite: they do give you a foothold of sorts, but you can only stay for two years after graduation unless you move to some other visa (like a skilled worker visa sponsored by an employer, similar to H1B). It's mostly a money thing: universities are forced to charge below cost (on average) to residents for degrees, so they try to attract international students which they can charge much more for. While some might want to immigrate, plenty more go back home afterwards (The UK has a lot of international prestige for education, so it's extremely common for rich families to send their kids to the UK, including boarding schools below the university level)
- logifail 2y ago
  Given that the UK doesn't have any kind of compulsory identity card or requirement to register your residential address, once you've entered the country once it may be fairly straightforward to overstay.
  - graemep 2y ago
    Yes and no. The real weakness is lack of recording when you leave the UK. The last time I went abroad there seemed to be no identity check: passports were only checked on entry. On the other hand it is impossible to get a job or rent decent accommodation without the right visas. It does not matter to illegal immigrants who work illegally for below minimum wage and sleep several to a room rented from a slum landlord, but I cannot see the sort of people who can afford overseas fees doing that. There are also consequences. I know someone who overstayed by a fairly short time (more due to being disorganised than anything else) who ended up unable to get a visa again for years. I do know someone who wrote a book (The Professional, by Ashok Ferry) that I think is fairly realistic about the desperate measures people can take to stay in the country, but it was unusual back then for people from affluent backgrounds to do that, and would be even more so now.
  - rcxdude 2y ago
    It's relatively easy to overstay, fairly difficult to live in the UK without a visa, since both landlords of rental properties and employers are supposed to check for them, and most of them do, so you wind up stuck in a pretty unstable position. For most graduates I'd imagine that's not particularly desirable. A quick search brought up an article which suggests that maybe ~7,000 people a year are overstaying their student visas (a high estimate, as that includes people who have left but the government didn't get a record of it), out of ~half a million granted a year, which is not exactly a huge influx compared the maybe ~50k a year who overstay a tourist visa instead, the ~15k a year who cross the channel on small boats, or the ~1 million a year moving into the UK legally. https://news.sky.com/story/i-had-no-idea-how-life-would-be-inside-the-lives-of-those-who-overstay-their-visas-and-go-underground-12931042 https://news.sky.com/story/i-had-no-idea-how-life-would-be-i...
heresie-dabord 2y ago
In many cases, the educational institution receiving a large population of foreign students is also an important regional employer that is severely underfunded. Without revenue from foreign students, such educational institutions may in fact face layoffs or closure. It will be a hard reckoning. From TFA: > Vivienne Stern, chief executive of Universities UK, rejects the suggestion some overseas students are being allowed on courses with poor English language skills as a way of boosting income. "Students will need to be able to afford the fee to study in the UK, but beyond that it’s a question of taking students who apply, and applying a merit-based criteria," [chief executive] says. "It is absolutely central that this is a system that people trust."

yawpitch 2y ago

The subtext of the subtext you mention in your first assertion hinges on the assumption the UK is where these people eventually want to live, once they have that education. A significant number of the British don’t even want to live here, post Brexit, and neither do most of the international students I’ve met. As for the second assertion, that’s just false. I had to apply for a graduate degree as an international student before my citizenship was awarded, the course requirements were explicitly identical, the only different was vastly higher fees and proof of both funding capacity and English language proficiency.

graemep 2y ago
> A significant number of the British don’t even want to live here, post Brexit Strangely few of them leave. There is a lot of "grass is greener" in British pessimism about their country. > neither do most of the international students I’ve met Most do not, but most never did. Most people prefer to live in their home country (especially if they are the sort that can afford overseas fees). That said they may want a degree that is recognised internationally (e.g. they get a cheaper degree that will be recognised in the US where salaries are much higher). There are also a significant proportion who do want to stay. As someone with dual nationality the UK is my preferred place to live.
- yawpitch 2y ago
  > Strangely few of them leave. There is a lot of "grass is greener" in British pessimism about their country. Talk to your average kid stuck in 90% of the one-time industrial towns north of London and the grass isn’t just greener… the fact they’ll never be able to afford to go doesn’t mean they wouldn’t at the drop of a hat if they could. > Most do not, but most never did There’s no obviously valid complaint about those who come here, pay international fees, maybe work a few years while paying taxes and NHS premiums, then go elsewhere or home. Come to think of it there’s very little obvious complaint about those who choose to come here legally, get an education at inflated cost to subsidize lower fees for the locals who tend not to avail themselves of them, then immigrate instead. Except, that is, from the older folk in those post-industrial towns, who don’t want to go anywhere they might have to speak foreign or eat anything but Sunday roast with proper British potatoes (that they bought from Aldi)… they seem to have a lot of less than obvious complaints.
  - graemep 2y ago
    > Talk to your average kid stuck in 90% of the one-time industrial towns north of London and the grass isn’t just greener… the fact they’ll never be able to afford to go doesn’t mean they wouldn’t at the drop of a hat if they could. Where could they go that is better? Lots of nice places abroad if you have money, but lot sof nice places in the UK if you have money. Have you lived in a former industrial town outside London? I have. Focusing on people there also breaks the tie to Brexit you mentioned earlier. These are the places where people voted for Brexit. its mostly people in the south who say they want to go abroad because of Brexit, especially affluent people who could if they would. > Except, that is, from the older folk in those post-industrial towns, who don’t want to go anywhere they might have to speak foreign or eat anything but Sunday roast with proper British potatoes (that they bought from Aldi) A rather bigoted view of people. I live in (an admittedly fairly prosperous) northern formerly industrial town and its friendly, has a (rather boring) Indian restaurant down the road. "Chinese chippies" are a long standing institution throughout the north west....
- stevekemp 2y ago
  While the pessimism is true it's also the case that post-Brexit it is very hard for many of them to actually leave. The lack of free movement really made it hard for a lot of UK people to move to Europe.
gadders 2y ago
>>the assumption the UK is where these people eventually want to live "In 2022, almost 73,000 former students were issued a Graduate Visa, which allows them to live and work in the UK for two years after graduation or three years for PhD graduates. Introduced in July 2021, the new route saw high take-up and led to a large increase in the number of students extending their stay in the UK. The number of students extending their stay in the UK through the Graduate route reached a record level in 2022 and continued to increase in 2023. In the year ending 30 September 2023, around 105,000 Graduate visas were granted to main applicants" >>I had to apply for a graduate degree Thanks for your anecdote. The International Students come in via foundation years not available to local students. More money for the uni, and the international students get in with lower grades. https://www.thetimes.com/uk/article/cash-for-courses-the-foreign-students-with-low-grades-at-top-universities-pcskjb6xx https://www.thetimes.com/uk/article/cash-for-courses-the-for...
- pjc50 2y ago
  > almost 73,000 former students were issued a Graduate Visa, which allows them to live and work in the UK for two years And what's wrong with that? These aren't overstays, they're people who've been granted visas in a perfectly above board manner.
  - gadders 2y ago
    It was in response to this up-thread: "your first assertion hinges on the assumption the UK is where these people eventually want to live, once they have that education" 73,000 want to, at least for two years.
    - yawpitch 2y ago
      Suppose I should have been clearer, perhaps that should have read “where these people eventually want to remain”, as in live for the rest of their lives, ie be immigrants instead of merely temporary expats (which should never bother a native, since they’re paying taxes during their working years without receiving benefits over their retirement years).

OkayBuddy44 2y ago

There are "colleges" that are literally just fronts for student visas. Canada just uncovered 10,000 fake student visas; the Australian government recently closed 150 colleges that don't even actually exist. All of these 'students' are now illegally in these countries, and realistically most will not be caught and deported. Perhaps the worst part is that even at the scale of this fraud, it pales in comparison to the mind-boggling number of students being legally permitted entry to these countries, most of them from India.

andygh 2y ago
Canada and Australia, obviously, have different compliance regimes. The expectations from the Home Office for Level 4 Visas are quite well documented and have very specific conditions that education providers must show to satisfy, e.g. the students who hold these Visas attend all their classes. A provider (University) can have their ability to sponsor Visas removed if their compliance isn't adequate. Part of the reasons Universities in the UK record attendance at all is because of the compliance regime from the Home Office. The story therefore is that these universities are inadequately complying.
jappgar 2y ago
Canada "uncovered" fake colleges and worker scams only after it became socially acceptable to question official immigration policies. Now that the Indian government is literally murdering Canadian citizens, it's a become a huge issue.
gadders 2y ago
I don't think the UK was ever as bad as Canada, but I think it could have been heading that way.

vishnugupta 2y ago

Exactly this. There’s a big money in this which cash strapped universities are naturally going to take advantage of. Employers in India, an example because I know this, don’t care much someone has a degree from UK university even if it’s a prestigious one. The single biggest factor for an Indian student to go for a graduate degree in developed country is emigration.

rcxdude 2y ago

Student visas in the UK aren't indefinite: they do give you a foothold of sorts, but you can only stay for two years after graduation unless you move to some other visa (like a skilled worker visa sponsored by an employer, similar to H1B). It's mostly a money thing: universities are forced to charge below cost (on average) to residents for degrees, so they try to attract international students which they can charge much more for. While some might want to immigrate, plenty more go back home afterwards (The UK has a lot of international prestige for education, so it's extremely common for rich families to send their kids to the UK, including boarding schools below the university level)

logifail 2y ago
Given that the UK doesn't have any kind of compulsory identity card or requirement to register your residential address, once you've entered the country once it may be fairly straightforward to overstay.
- graemep 2y ago
  Yes and no. The real weakness is lack of recording when you leave the UK. The last time I went abroad there seemed to be no identity check: passports were only checked on entry. On the other hand it is impossible to get a job or rent decent accommodation without the right visas. It does not matter to illegal immigrants who work illegally for below minimum wage and sleep several to a room rented from a slum landlord, but I cannot see the sort of people who can afford overseas fees doing that. There are also consequences. I know someone who overstayed by a fairly short time (more due to being disorganised than anything else) who ended up unable to get a visa again for years. I do know someone who wrote a book (The Professional, by Ashok Ferry) that I think is fairly realistic about the desperate measures people can take to stay in the country, but it was unusual back then for people from affluent backgrounds to do that, and would be even more so now.
- rcxdude 2y ago
  It's relatively easy to overstay, fairly difficult to live in the UK without a visa, since both landlords of rental properties and employers are supposed to check for them, and most of them do, so you wind up stuck in a pretty unstable position. For most graduates I'd imagine that's not particularly desirable. A quick search brought up an article which suggests that maybe ~7,000 people a year are overstaying their student visas (a high estimate, as that includes people who have left but the government didn't get a record of it), out of ~half a million granted a year, which is not exactly a huge influx compared the maybe ~50k a year who overstay a tourist visa instead, the ~15k a year who cross the channel on small boats, or the ~1 million a year moving into the UK legally. https://news.sky.com/story/i-had-no-idea-how-life-would-be-inside-the-lives-of-those-who-overstay-their-visas-and-go-underground-12931042 https://news.sky.com/story/i-had-no-idea-how-life-would-be-i...

heresie-dabord 2y ago

In many cases, the educational institution receiving a large population of foreign students is also an important regional employer that is severely underfunded. Without revenue from foreign students, such educational institutions may in fact face layoffs or closure. It will be a hard reckoning. From TFA: > Vivienne Stern, chief executive of Universities UK, rejects the suggestion some overseas students are being allowed on courses with poor English language skills as a way of boosting income. "Students will need to be able to afford the fee to study in the UK, but beyond that it’s a question of taking students who apply, and applying a merit-based criteria," [chief executive] says. "It is absolutely central that this is a system that people trust."