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> And Intel has benefits and stock packages that rival those of big tech. Given Intel’s stock returns over the past 15 years, Intel would have to offer insane

> And Intel has benefits and stock packages that rival those of big tech. Given Intel’s stock returns over the past 15 years, Intel would have to offer insane cash compensation to rival big tech. Levels.fyi indicates Intel heavily underpays, which is what I would expect. https://www.levels.fyi/?compare=Intel,Apple,Google&track=Software%20Engineer https://www.levels.fyi/?compare=Intel,Apple,Google&track=Sof...

MPSFounder 2y ago
Should have mentioned Hardware. I remember Intel pays more than Apple hardware when adjusted for COL (Intel in Oregon/New Mexico vs Cupertino). It has been a while since I looked into the salaries though. I agree they do not pay well relative to big tech on the software side of things though
- lotsofpulp 2y ago
  Top talent who can shop around for more pay is going to demand higher pay in exchange for the opportunity costs for having to live in Oregon/New Mexico compared to Cupertino.
  - yvdriess 2y ago
    It does help to retain the talent, those 5-10y engineers have a house on mortgage and need a higher pay incentive to uproot their lives. At least, that was probably the reasoning before, things have changed: - WFH means you do not even have to move. - Competitors have set up satellite offices in Hillsborough/Portland to poach talent. - Intel does not feel like the stable employer anymore, with the almost yearly layoff waves since the BK era.
  - araes 2y ago
    This case kind of depends on your priorities. If your goal is the Cupertino, Sunnyvale, Mountain View lifestyle and lateraling between the various companies in the area, then it's an opportunity cost. Has other positives also: low crime, wealthy neighbors, investment money, startup opportunities, mountains and hiking in the area, ocean nearby. Has it's downsides though. Having visited NASA Ames over in Mountain View because of space agency work, it has a lot of the same issues as Aspen. Lot of sameness, lot of architecture that's McWealthy pseduo-Pueblo, lot of expensive blast plain suburbia, lot of people that start with "you're leaving money on the table" mentality, San Jose and San Fran traffic nearby can be nightmarish, and the crime of Oakland doesn't have that far to walk. With many family in the Portland, Hillsboro, Beaverton area, that area also has it's positives: relatively low crime in Hillsboro / Beaverton (Portland's not great on the East side)[1], wealthy neighbors, huge amounts of hiking / outdoors / mountain climbing / biking / botanical gardens / parks, much less of blast plain suburbia, somewhat private feeling / hidden housing developments, ocean nearby, Columbia River nearby, significant art culture, lots of breweries / restaurants / food trucks / foodies, decent public transit, if you want dry desert wealth like Cali then Bend is not that far away. Comparing the shows Portlandia vs Silicon Valley and Weeds is not a bad approximation. [1] https://www.thetrace.org/2023/02/gun-violence-map-america-shootings/?place=Beaverton-Oregon https://www.thetrace.org/2023/02/gun-violence-map-america-sh...
araes 2y ago
Thank you for the pay comparison website link. The pay scale difference is frankly is a little challenging to even believe in some cases. Facebook pays an M2 software manager $1,426,471? Comparables at other (F)AANGs are $700,000 to $800,000. Double ??? at the same grade? That seems like nonsensical escalation. Does not seem like FB/Meta/saggy infinity symbol formerly known as Prince is getting their money's worth.
- lotsofpulp 2y ago
  When equity compensation is such a high proportion, one can not simply compare numbers. You have to take into account volatility of the business and its impact on share price (and hence impact on your compensation). The equity compensation figures on levels.fyi are very rough estimates on what one might sees, but it is possible that Meta has to offer more equity due to more perceived volatility in its business rather than, say, Apple or Microsoft. Or maybe more expected work hours/days. But also, Meta has long been known to pay more, famously being the business that eschewed the collusion that resulted in the famous high-tech employee antitrust litigation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_Litigation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_L...

MPSFounder 2y ago

Should have mentioned Hardware. I remember Intel pays more than Apple hardware when adjusted for COL (Intel in Oregon/New Mexico vs Cupertino). It has been a while since I looked into the salaries though. I agree they do not pay well relative to big tech on the software side of things though

lotsofpulp 2y ago
Top talent who can shop around for more pay is going to demand higher pay in exchange for the opportunity costs for having to live in Oregon/New Mexico compared to Cupertino.
- yvdriess 2y ago
  It does help to retain the talent, those 5-10y engineers have a house on mortgage and need a higher pay incentive to uproot their lives. At least, that was probably the reasoning before, things have changed: - WFH means you do not even have to move. - Competitors have set up satellite offices in Hillsborough/Portland to poach talent. - Intel does not feel like the stable employer anymore, with the almost yearly layoff waves since the BK era.
- araes 2y ago
  This case kind of depends on your priorities. If your goal is the Cupertino, Sunnyvale, Mountain View lifestyle and lateraling between the various companies in the area, then it's an opportunity cost. Has other positives also: low crime, wealthy neighbors, investment money, startup opportunities, mountains and hiking in the area, ocean nearby. Has it's downsides though. Having visited NASA Ames over in Mountain View because of space agency work, it has a lot of the same issues as Aspen. Lot of sameness, lot of architecture that's McWealthy pseduo-Pueblo, lot of expensive blast plain suburbia, lot of people that start with "you're leaving money on the table" mentality, San Jose and San Fran traffic nearby can be nightmarish, and the crime of Oakland doesn't have that far to walk. With many family in the Portland, Hillsboro, Beaverton area, that area also has it's positives: relatively low crime in Hillsboro / Beaverton (Portland's not great on the East side)[1], wealthy neighbors, huge amounts of hiking / outdoors / mountain climbing / biking / botanical gardens / parks, much less of blast plain suburbia, somewhat private feeling / hidden housing developments, ocean nearby, Columbia River nearby, significant art culture, lots of breweries / restaurants / food trucks / foodies, decent public transit, if you want dry desert wealth like Cali then Bend is not that far away. Comparing the shows Portlandia vs Silicon Valley and Weeds is not a bad approximation. [1] https://www.thetrace.org/2023/02/gun-violence-map-america-shootings/?place=Beaverton-Oregon https://www.thetrace.org/2023/02/gun-violence-map-america-sh...

araes 2y ago

Thank you for the pay comparison website link. The pay scale difference is frankly is a little challenging to even believe in some cases. Facebook pays an M2 software manager $1,426,471? Comparables at other (F)AANGs are $700,000 to $800,000. Double ??? at the same grade? That seems like nonsensical escalation. Does not seem like FB/Meta/saggy infinity symbol formerly known as Prince is getting their money's worth.

lotsofpulp 2y ago
When equity compensation is such a high proportion, one can not simply compare numbers. You have to take into account volatility of the business and its impact on share price (and hence impact on your compensation). The equity compensation figures on levels.fyi are very rough estimates on what one might sees, but it is possible that Meta has to offer more equity due to more perceived volatility in its business rather than, say, Apple or Microsoft. Or maybe more expected work hours/days. But also, Meta has long been known to pay more, famously being the business that eschewed the collusion that resulted in the famous high-tech employee antitrust litigation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_Litigation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_L...