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Woman's call to end video game misogyny sparks vicious online attacks
- newobj 14y agoAs of right now (an hour after the story was submitted), there is not a single top level comment here sympathetic to the woman in question. Interesting.
- tikhonj 14y agoI don't think this is necessarily a reflection of HN's biases. Rather, there is simply little new to be said about this in a vacuum: yes, there is a problem with sexism and yes, the reaction to her project is disgusting (regardless of your stance on the issue) but all that is clear from the article. What more to say about it? I suppose people could offer sympathy--certainly a nice gesture--but not with much substance. Since she probably does not read HN, those types comments would not be very useful at all. So most of the people agreeing with the article do not really have a good reason to post at the top level. On the other hand, they have plenty of reason to respond to other people. So the sympathetic posts are all framed as responses to others' comments largely because there isn't much to respond to in the article.
- kmfrk 14y agoIt follows the trend of other Hacker News threads. Other threads on SRS/reddit have gone the same way.
- Karunamon 14y agoAny call to end any kind of specific artistic expression is (rightly) going to be met with resistance and derision. Whether that be sex, swearing, misogyny, what have you. Attacks are of course going too far, but not expecting some form of legitimate resistance is naive, at best. Combine that with the outrage the internet tends to generate, and this behavior, while reprehensible, shouldn't come as a surprise. Morals never have, never do, and never will dictate art. The sooner people recognize that the answer to something offending your sensibilities is to move on from that particular thing, rather than writing screeds which will be ignored by the perpetrators at best and heckled at worst, the happier we'll all be. *edit Guess that's what I get for not reading the link. Site's being websense'd, so I can't actually see it. Thanks for the editorialized, BS headline, submitter > : (
- fistofjohnwayne 14y agoIt's a poor headline, the goal that's earned her all the hate is this: "This video project will explore, analyze and deconstruct some of the most common tropes and stereotypes of female characters in games. The series will highlight the larger recurring patterns and conventions used within the gaming industry rather than just focusing on the worst offenders."
- scott_s 14y agoI think that you're demonstrating the problem: you're reacting to actions that you think she is demanding, instead of reacting to what she is actually proposing.
- delehal 14y agoHas Sarkeesian made a "call to end any kind of specific artistic expression", though? Last I heard, she just wants to make a documentary or two exploring the treatment of women in video games. If she's trying to highlight a disgusting trend of misogyny in gaming culture, I would say she is doing an excellent job.
- ShawnBird 14y agoIt will probably just end up like her last Tropes vs Women series where she banned all movies and television and forcibly castrated every male director and screenwriter. How do we keep letting her get away with this stuff? /s
- milesskorpen 14y ago
- deleted 14y ago[deleted]
- milesskorpen 14y agoI'm not sure it is fair to call video games male dominated. There are a number of game genres that are predominantly populated by women. One big challenge is that women are so harassed on these services that they mask their gender, and make it really difficult to know what the M:F ratio actually is.
- DungFu 14y agoOn services like Xbox live and psn, it is about 90/10 male female for active players. I would call that male dominated.
- wicker 14y agoDo you have a source for this number that accounts for women who have labelled themselves 'M' in order to avoid harassment? It's common among my friends to do so, which goes back to Anita's original point on misogyny having effects in games. I haven't seen a study which addresses how many women do this, nor a clear breakdown on how many of them do it because they've experienced harassment or are just worried about it because of second-hand stories.
- mbreese 14y agoBut if women are afraid to actually self identify as such (due to harassment), you'll never be able to get an accurate measure of the true ratio.
- macey 14y agoFor the record, I label myself male, and so do all of my female friends who play games. We all refuse to use our voices during gameplay. It's not limited to gaming, either. We've all got male-sounding handles for a number of platforms/forums/etc. Why? Not worth the shitstorm. I'll never really understand, I guess. Just can't empathize with the overwhelming need to harass, belittle, and attack people online just because of a single identifier. I'm glad I can't. I bet it feels really empty.
- haberman 14y agoLinked article is scant on details. This all appears to concern this Kickstarter project, which is to create a series of videos that survey common themes to how women are represented in video games: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/566429325/tropes-vs-women-in-video-games http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/566429325/tropes-vs-wome... Here is the author's blog, which has a lot of updates about the harassment she has received as a result of it: http://www.feministfrequency.com/ http://www.feministfrequency.com/ There are some truly shocking and disturbing things in here, like the screenshots from the "game" someone made where you can beat up a photo of her face: http://www.feministfrequency.com/2012/07/image-based-harassment-and-visual-misogyny/#more-3085 http://www.feministfrequency.com/2012/07/image-based-harassm...
- pkulak 14y agoNice to see that campaign funded. I wish I wasn't late to the party so I could contribute.
- saturn 14y ago> the screenshots from the "game" someone made One person. They're obviously troubled. Are we really going to let the actions of one person change the frame of the whole discussion? A game allowing you to beat up a woman is, I hope, repulsive to any HN reader. But its existence, especially when it's so easy these days, means nothing in and of itself. You could probably feed in any picture you like, man or woman. It's not a weighty factor in a discussion.
- breadbox 14y agoThe game was made by one person, yes. But it's a little misleading to emphasize that this was "one person" when they were representative of the massive amounts of anti-feminist sentiment that was sent her way. If you look through the random sampling of comments her video garnered, it's hard to claim that the video game "changed the frame of the discussion" that was already well underway.
- papsosouid 14y ago
- charliebrown 14y agoMore sammages, less thinking. Seriously though, she's ugly and it's always the ugly ones that have a problem with beauty.
- tokenizer 14y agoWell personally I'm disappointed at you internet. You should be getting mad at things that make sense, not someone who wants to educate people and make a documentary...
- dmix 14y agoThe kids on ebaum and 4chan love exploiting the mainstream worlds extreme sensitivity and political correctness with these "raids". The fact that it was a post about misogyny that sparked it was probably just incidental. It's the fact that she demonstrated sensitivity to language and had an online presence made her the perfect target for such an attack. Mainly because the most that these kids can do in a raid is posting offensive things on web sites.
- deleted 14y ago[deleted]
- ahelwer 14y agoI don't really believe this. I've seen too much of the average gamer's opinions on women; this shouldn't be dismissed as a bunch of 4channers being 4channers. There are deep problems in the community and they need to be acknowledged and fought. If you want to see how pervasive the problem is, there's a subreddit called ShitRedditSays which records horrible (and highly upvoted) submissions and comments. This is a real problem with real attitudes. Edit: Ah yes, I should have known that mentioning SRS would garner such a reaction... people really don't seem to like being called out on their crappiness.
- kmfrk 14y agoPretty much. This is an opportunity to recognize a rampant problem, not something endemic to two website communities.
- jquery 14y agoYou're proving the parent's point. ShitRedditSays is a troll subreddit created by SomethingAwful forums. It's purpose is to parody the extreme outrage that occurs anytime something un-PC is said. The fact it has attracted some people who are actually serious is like how The Colbert Report has a conservative following.
- ben0x539 14y agoCould you provide some background on that? I was under the impression that ShitRedditSays is an outgrowth of the attempt to embarass reddit into getting rid of the child porn subforum on their site.
- krsunny 14y agoWomen are portrayed in video games the same way and for the same reasons they are portrayed on TV and in magazines. This is ridiculous.
- Kell 14y agoSo nothing should change ? And when asking to change how women are represented in TV ... what if they say : "Hey, women are portrayed in TV the same way and for the same reasons they are portrayed on video games and in magazines. This is ridiculous." Your argument, is a fallacy.
- philjones 14y agoYes, it IS ridiculous that women are so poorly portrayed, poorly treated, misrepresented and under-represented in TV, magazines, film, video games. All media. All of society. The same can be said of people of colour, of LGBTTIQQ2SA people, of all minorities. Please, do not diminish a problem because it is common (or in this case ubiquitous). That only makes it that much more of a problem. Women are portrayed the way they are because it makes straight white men happy, but it destroys the agency of women as equal beings.
- r7000 14y agoShe was interviewed on CBC radio recently: http://www.cbc.ca/player/Radio/The+Current/ID/2252831223/ http://www.cbc.ca/player/Radio/The+Current/ID/2252831223/ The piece has a lot more details plus interviews with women working in the gaming industry.
- pdeuchler 14y agoOff Topic: It's rather interesting to note that as a society we have advanced enough to the point that we can donate the resources to support roughly 3 average size families for a year to a "pop culture critic" to study video games. No condemnations or moral objections, just merely stating an interesting observation.
- kmfrk 14y agoI'm pretty sure the contributions were a reaction to the vitriol Anita was met with more than anything else. The harassment proved her point, before she had any chance to.
- ShawnBird 14y agoWell I heard about it because of an article about harassment but I donated because Tropes vs Women is an awesome and entertaining youtube series.
- wickedchicken 14y ago> we can donate the resources to support roughly 3 average size families for a year to a "pop culture critic" At least she is attempting to advance society. If you want to feel depressed, 209 million USD was spent on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battleship_(film) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battleship_(film). 209 million.
- Almaviva 14y agoIn another light, society, using pricing as a communication signal, has determined that its value is worth 100 million USD more than its cost. I'm not sure whether that's less or more depressing. > The film has earned $64,372,300 in North America, as of July 9, 2012, and $236,650,220 in other countries, as of June 28, 2012, for a worldwide total of $301,022,520.
- slig 14y agoExactly. For studying stuff that's hardly original research (TVTropes) and recording videos that's a lot of money.
- gergles 14y agoI find it humorous that someone claiming the throne of righteousness and correctness about rising above the evil men dominating the world of video games has reacted to criticism by posting a drawing branding men (and ONLY men) as "trolls" (accompanied with a 'hss' sound effect, even! [1],) yet somehow has the unmitigated temerity to complain about sexism. Plank in your eye and all that. [1]: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/566429325/tropes-vs-women-in-video-games/posts/247064 http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/566429325/tropes-vs-wome...
- AlexandrB 14y ago> criticism There's a line between criticism and what happened to her. Are you seriously comparing a cartoon mocking non-specific trolls* to sustained abusive material (and doxing) aimed directly at an individual target? *One of the trolls in that picture is most likely male, the others (smaller ones) are really non-descript and genderless. Are you sure this isn't just a case of you using "male" as the default gender for an androgynous picture?
- true_religion 14y agoHey, merely comparing two things does not mean anyone is implying they're equivalent in weight.
- scribu 14y agoYou're making it sound like she's saying _all_ men are trolls, when in fact it was aimed at the people harassing her, which are probably 100% male.
- papsosouid 14y agoWhile they are probably mostly male, they are certainly not 100% male, I know a woman who was part of the trolling effort. Also, we should look at the other side of the coin also. 90% of the people supporting her and funding her videos are male also.
- hypersoar 14y ago
- gee_totes 14y agoI'd like to make a point of clarification with the article. The woman, Californian blogger Anita Sarkeesian, had her Wikipedia page locked after it was hacked repeatedly with profanity, lies and pornography You can't "hack" a Wikipedia page. Anyone can edit Wikipedia, and the actions described above are vandalism, not hacking.
- revelation 14y agoHer project is funded at 2600%. Why bother with internet trolls? They certainly won't go away because you appeal to them with facts or pleas. The only response is to ignore them.
- papsosouid 14y agoThe trolls are why it was funded to 2600%. She didn't ignore them, she didn't delete their posts. She used them to drum up publicity and sympathy. She doesn't want to ignore them, they are her best ally. That's why the "after 4chan stopped trolling her, she got some people to keep reposting the troll comments anyways" conspiracy theory is so popular.
- king_jester 14y agoAre you seriously suggesting that someone who is the target of a campaign of harassment is "using" the aggressors as a way to boost their visibility? The reason why this project blew up is because other people saw what was happening and decided to donate to the Kickstarter project. Further, these people are not anyone's ally, least of all the person who is being attacked. You are very deliberately saying that she deserves what she gets and that it is her fault that she is being attacked and doxed. This is 100% victim blaming and you yourself are not only siding with the mysoginistic aggressors, but being one.
- papsosouid 14y ago>Are you seriously suggesting that someone who is the target of a campaign of harassment is "using" the aggressors as a way to boost their visibility? Yes. And you agree in your next sentence, the reason it blew up is because of all the trolling. >You are very deliberately saying that she deserves what she gets and that it is her fault that she is being attacked and doxed. I said nothing of the sort, what on earth are you talking about? I said she doesn't ignore the trolls as the parent poster suggested, because the trolls are how she got so over funded, and how she is trying to further this event into a career. How exactly is "she is being smart and taking advantage of the trolls, so it is not in her best interests to ignore them" blaming her for being attacked? Glad you can tell I hate women from your imagined version of me saying things that don't even vaguely resemble anything I said though.
- ThomPete 14y agoThis is one of those situations where one should be very careful with concluding anything. As I read and understood it the misogyny in effect is for instance female players being sent pictures of mens penises. Not that different from what we know from the chat roulette experiment. Now that is obviously bad style but it's definitely not something that only exist in games and media and thus treating it as if it's something specific to media or games is probably what created the outcry (not defending it just explaining it). Try and go to a disco and see the hot ladies being hit on from all sides. In some countries they suppress this behavior by forcing the women to wear vails so no one can see them and stoning them to death for adultery. Whether receiving "dick shots" is the other side of men and woman having equal rights I am not sure, but calling an end to misogony is like calling and end men. I wish her luck.
- chc 14y agoI'm a man and somehow I manage not to send women photographs of my member. So no, it is not like calling for an end to men. If all the men you know are like that, you need to meet some better men.
- ThomPete 14y agoDo you know this expression? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalization http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalization
- king_jester 14y ago> Now that is obviously bad style but it's definitely not something that only exist in games and media and thus treating it as if it's something specific to media or games is probably what created the outcry (not defending it just explaining it). Uh, this project has nothing to do with blaming sexism on media and games. The project was designed to be an examination of those areas and how they relate to sexism. If you are suggesting that examining an issue is just cause to harass someone, you are most certainly silencing those you disagree with. > In some countries they suppress this behavior by forcing the women to wear vails so no one can see them and stoning them to death for adultery. This is just straight up islamophobia. This whole situation indicates you don't need to look any farther than your own back yard to find people willing to attack, harass, and silence others. > Whether receiving "dick shots" is the other side of men and woman having equal rights I am not sure, but calling an end to misogony is like calling and end men. You can be a man and not be a misogynist. Heck, you can be female and be a misogynist. What you are saying is that you consider misogyny to be the norm and that we shouldn't change it nor discuss it. In other words, you yourself are admitting to being a misogynist and you have no problem with that.
- stfu 14y agoIs her cause any different from those, who want to portrait video games as glorify violence and concluding therefore that they makes grownups more violent? Sure, she wants to just "research" it, but by the position taking in the proposal the outcome seems already quite "expectable".
- kitsune_ 14y agoHer cause is different because her documentary wants to explore stereotypes of female characters in popular video games. It's not about how this leads to ... whatever you think she claims this to leads to. The outcome of her exploration is 'expectable' because it's self-evident. I'm an avid gamer. To put it mildly, in comparison to video games, Isaac Asimov's portrayal of female characters had more depth, grace and truth in them. Considering how abysmal Asimov was in this matter...
- papsosouid 14y agoWhy is this suddenly a big deal now? These "punch random annoying celebrity X" flash games have been around since the 90s. I don't see Justin Bieber desperately trying to drum up more media attention even though a dozen people have made the same game out of his face. But of course, it is a horrible crime to do it to a "feminist", that's totally different right? Also, it is sad and ironic that losttrap (the guy who made the game) has gotten just as much abuse from the feminists as Anita got in the first place. They thought it was terrible when it happened to Anita, but are perfectly happy to do the same thing themselves. It is especially bad to see how much of their abuse has focused on his sexuality.
- yummyfajitas 14y agoSimilarly, all the people complaining now were silent when Charles Carreon was the subject of internet hatred.
- deleted 14y ago[deleted]
- papsosouid 14y agoI didn't say it was a non-issue because it is commonplace. I simply pointed out that it is commonplace, and a non-issue. If it were not a non-issue, then there would be a shitstorm for the hundreds of other such games. Given that all the others are completely ignored, that by definition means it is a non-issue. The target of the abusive game is making every effort to drum up more media attention and thus more money using this game. I have a hard time believing that she is asking people not to abuse him out of kindness, when the obvious ulterior motive ($$$) is present, given that she has demonstrated she is very willing to be deceptive to try to cash in.
- stephth 14y agoWhy is this suddenly a big deal now? What do you mean it's a "big deal"? Is it a "big deal" because people are talking about it? Are you not cool with that? Someone is doing a cultural study and is getting attacked for it. Some of us think that's worthy of our attention. You've written 11% of the comments of this thread (13 comments out of 117), and they are mostly angry/poisonous. If you don't agree that this has importance, why don't you move somewhere else? You'd do a favor to this thread and trust me, yourself.
- vasco 14y agoI find it interesting that a feminist would rather invest her time studying social phenomenons involving videogames and legos in detriment of issues such as women being forced to marry their rapists or even killed because of them. Additionally, I'm not sure why she needs backing for this project. She clearly has a high quality camera and the means to produce high quality video footage, as presented in the kickstarter page.
- ChrisNorstrom 14y agoDon't hold her up to a standard that even you can't live up to. I don't agree with a lot of her bullshit but she's onto something that needs to be talked about and discussed. Rather than asking "why doens't she do X instead of Y, Y is so much more important". Why don't YOU do X or Y? If we stand for internet freedom why aren't we all protesting or campaigning or working on an alliance instead of browing HN all day?
- cpearce 14y agoSince we're in the mood to call an end to unrealistic portrayals of people's fantasies, I think it's about time we demanded an end to romance novels.
- stephth 14y agoHow did this story already get buried to the second page of HN, when there are half a dozen of stories with roughly the same age and votes in the first half of the first page? I can even see a 4h older post with the exact same number of votes, still in the first page. I don't like to be cynical but it's hard not to notice the exceptionally angry comments against this topic and the oddly low position of this thread.
- jellicle 14y agoIf I may be permitted: If you try to talk about misogyny on a forum that is 98% male, you're going to have a bad time.
- stephth 14y agoI'm male and you don't see me flagging and trolling stories like these. I get your point, but it's a pretty sad thing to read about HN. I thought people here were more evolved than this. This story is now on page 4. Incredible.
- kmfrk 14y agoIt's a Hacker News things. There are forums that fortunately are perfectly able to have a level-headed discussion about this. You need to narrow it down to more than "a forum that is 98% male" - but I'll grant you that the sample size is really, really small.
- arrakeen 14y agofull disclosure: i'm a kickstarter backer of this project, however... the article title is exaggerated linkbait: Sarkeesian's project is a sociological exploration of the representation of women in video games, NOT a call to end videogame misogyny. while i'm sure that she'd like 'end video game misogyny', that's not the immediate point of this project