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> We need to pursue all available options simultaneously to effectively combat climate change. lol, all available options as long as we don't actually look at

> We need to pursue all available options simultaneously to effectively combat climate change. lol, all available options as long as we don't actually look at the root cause and just throw more money and tech at it in the hope it automagically stops hint: infinite growth in a finite system doesn't work PS: and if you care about results, we've been exploring every solution for quite some time now, you know after all our leaders get together in Paris or other fancy place and talk about clean solutions. Well we've been release more CO2 every year. The only time it dipped was during covid when ... you guessed it ... we had negative growth, aka degrowth. We never had so much sustainable energy production but we also never produced so much co2 and pollution

weego 2y ago
We can throw about causation arguments till the rivers dry up. Will it get us anywhere? Doing something will always win against doing nothing because we're fighting over who has the most virtuous opinion.
- lm28469 2y ago
  > Doing something will always win against doing nothing Yeah, like we used to pray our gods for more rain, it certainly doesn't hurt, proving it is useful is much more difficult though. We focus on co2 because it's the only thing we can pretend to be able to tackle a little bit while ignoring the rest like ocean acidification, massive global collapse of wildlife, including insects, rainwater being unsafe to drink pretty much everywhere in the world, micro plastics polluting the entire planet and virtually every single living organism, PFAs, increase in chances of world wide simultaneous crop failure, &c. 99% of what we're doing is green washing or wishful thinking (or sinking, when it comes to co2), the truth is that we won't be able to sustain the western lifestyle much longer, especially not when China, India, and Africa are coming for their slice of the cake If you think 3000kg EVs transporting 80kg of meat and niche carbon sinking tech will save us I have a bridge to sell you.
nozzlegear 2y ago
Degrowth doesn't work either, it's not a solution and nobody will ever go for it. From the abstract of Reviewing studies of degrowth: Are claims matched by data, methods and policy analysis?: > (2) the large majority (almost 90%) of studies are opinions rather than analysis; > (3) few studies use quantitative or qualitative data, and even fewer ones use formal modelling; > (4) the first and second type tend to include small samples or focus on non-representative cases; > (5) most studies offer ad hoc and subjective policy advice, lacking policy evaluation and integration with insights from the literature on environmental/climate policies; > (6) of the few studies on public support, a majority concludes that degrowth strategies and policies are socially-politically infeasible; Source: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0921800924002210 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S092180092...
- lm28469 2y ago
  > Degrowth doesn't work either It's literally the only mathematically viable option. Either you choose it and plan for it or you hit the wall and deal with the consequences. Just take a gpd per capita world map, superimpose it over a pollution per capita world map, and extrapole the impact of china+india+africa living like the average american or even the average european, it just doesn't work out, but it's coming very soon
  - ryandvm 2y ago
    It's not coming very soon because those populations are going to completely skip the phase where every household has 2 or 3 fossil fuel vehicles.
    - lm28469 2y ago
      Personal transportation is about 15% of co2 emissions. That hardly explains why the average American lifestyle produces literally 10 times more co2 than the average Indian's
  - nozzlegear 2y ago
    > Either you choose it and plan for it or you hit the wall and deal with the consequences. That's the problem though, without a sea change in human behavior, nobody will ever choose it. As the paper I linked points out, degrowth is a political self-own. Nobody likes it, nobody wants it, and hardly anybody has even studied it properly. Planning on hitting the wall and dealing with the consequences is our reality, so studies like the OP have a real and practical use.
bryanlarsen 2y ago
At this point we need net-zero. Degrowth cannot get us to 0, nor can it get us anywhere close to zero.
- lm28469 2y ago
  See the problem is that we want to continue doing everything in the exact same way without giving up on any single little eccentricity we have no matter how ridiculous and how stupidly unsustainable they are, not a single damn thing Degrowth is also stopping to eat tomatoes in the middle of January instead of importing them from the other side of the world, or not eating fucking salmon when you live in South Africa, or not using a 3000kg car to move you 80kg ass around the street to go shopping. Or things like not living in the desert and relying on AC and artificial rain to keep you alive because you would physically die if you were to experience the outside world for more than an hour
  - bryanlarsen 2y ago
    And by making all of those changes you'll lower carbon emissions by about 10%. OTOH, switching to zero-carbon electricity and zero-carbon transportation would lower carbon emissions by 60%.
    - lm28469 2y ago
      > switching to zero-carbon electricity and zero-carbon transportation would lower carbon emissions by 60% Is the 0 carbon mining and 0 carbon steel in the room with us right now ? What about the 0 carbon asphalt ? 0 carbon tires ? 0 carbon cement to build your 0 carbon power plant ? 0 carbon plastic to build your 0 carbon solar panels ? fyi steel is still made with coke, 1700s century style, and nothing is even close to ready to replace it, and you need it in virtually every car and building When you actually look into it you will quickly realise it raises way more questions than it brings answers. And then you realise we already mined all the easy shit, now it's getting harder and harder to find the good stuff, harder meaning more energy intensive, it also means more soil to go through which means more chemicals to use (and guess what, most of it is petrol derivates), which means more tailing dams, more pollution, more wild life ecosystems destroyed, &c. Anyone looking into the problem with an ounce of good faith cannot reach a conclusion as simple as yours. If you're still at the "electric cars " will save us I envy you, life was simpler back then

weego 2y ago

We can throw about causation arguments till the rivers dry up. Will it get us anywhere? Doing something will always win against doing nothing because we're fighting over who has the most virtuous opinion.

lm28469 2y ago
> Doing something will always win against doing nothing Yeah, like we used to pray our gods for more rain, it certainly doesn't hurt, proving it is useful is much more difficult though. We focus on co2 because it's the only thing we can pretend to be able to tackle a little bit while ignoring the rest like ocean acidification, massive global collapse of wildlife, including insects, rainwater being unsafe to drink pretty much everywhere in the world, micro plastics polluting the entire planet and virtually every single living organism, PFAs, increase in chances of world wide simultaneous crop failure, &c. 99% of what we're doing is green washing or wishful thinking (or sinking, when it comes to co2), the truth is that we won't be able to sustain the western lifestyle much longer, especially not when China, India, and Africa are coming for their slice of the cake If you think 3000kg EVs transporting 80kg of meat and niche carbon sinking tech will save us I have a bridge to sell you.

nozzlegear 2y ago

Degrowth doesn't work either, it's not a solution and nobody will ever go for it. From the abstract of Reviewing studies of degrowth: Are claims matched by data, methods and policy analysis?: > (2) the large majority (almost 90%) of studies are opinions rather than analysis; > (3) few studies use quantitative or qualitative data, and even fewer ones use formal modelling; > (4) the first and second type tend to include small samples or focus on non-representative cases; > (5) most studies offer ad hoc and subjective policy advice, lacking policy evaluation and integration with insights from the literature on environmental/climate policies; > (6) of the few studies on public support, a majority concludes that degrowth strategies and policies are socially-politically infeasible; Source: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0921800924002210 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S092180092...

lm28469 2y ago
> Degrowth doesn't work either It's literally the only mathematically viable option. Either you choose it and plan for it or you hit the wall and deal with the consequences. Just take a gpd per capita world map, superimpose it over a pollution per capita world map, and extrapole the impact of china+india+africa living like the average american or even the average european, it just doesn't work out, but it's coming very soon
- ryandvm 2y ago
  It's not coming very soon because those populations are going to completely skip the phase where every household has 2 or 3 fossil fuel vehicles.
  - lm28469 2y ago
    Personal transportation is about 15% of co2 emissions. That hardly explains why the average American lifestyle produces literally 10 times more co2 than the average Indian's
- nozzlegear 2y ago
  > Either you choose it and plan for it or you hit the wall and deal with the consequences. That's the problem though, without a sea change in human behavior, nobody will ever choose it. As the paper I linked points out, degrowth is a political self-own. Nobody likes it, nobody wants it, and hardly anybody has even studied it properly. Planning on hitting the wall and dealing with the consequences is our reality, so studies like the OP have a real and practical use.

bryanlarsen 2y ago

At this point we need net-zero. Degrowth cannot get us to 0, nor can it get us anywhere close to zero.

lm28469 2y ago
See the problem is that we want to continue doing everything in the exact same way without giving up on any single little eccentricity we have no matter how ridiculous and how stupidly unsustainable they are, not a single damn thing Degrowth is also stopping to eat tomatoes in the middle of January instead of importing them from the other side of the world, or not eating fucking salmon when you live in South Africa, or not using a 3000kg car to move you 80kg ass around the street to go shopping. Or things like not living in the desert and relying on AC and artificial rain to keep you alive because you would physically die if you were to experience the outside world for more than an hour
- bryanlarsen 2y ago
  And by making all of those changes you'll lower carbon emissions by about 10%. OTOH, switching to zero-carbon electricity and zero-carbon transportation would lower carbon emissions by 60%.
  - lm28469 2y ago
    > switching to zero-carbon electricity and zero-carbon transportation would lower carbon emissions by 60% Is the 0 carbon mining and 0 carbon steel in the room with us right now ? What about the 0 carbon asphalt ? 0 carbon tires ? 0 carbon cement to build your 0 carbon power plant ? 0 carbon plastic to build your 0 carbon solar panels ? fyi steel is still made with coke, 1700s century style, and nothing is even close to ready to replace it, and you need it in virtually every car and building When you actually look into it you will quickly realise it raises way more questions than it brings answers. And then you realise we already mined all the easy shit, now it's getting harder and harder to find the good stuff, harder meaning more energy intensive, it also means more soil to go through which means more chemicals to use (and guess what, most of it is petrol derivates), which means more tailing dams, more pollution, more wild life ecosystems destroyed, &c. Anyone looking into the problem with an ounce of good faith cannot reach a conclusion as simple as yours. If you're still at the "electric cars " will save us I envy you, life was simpler back then