4 ms·

I think Apple Silicon has shown us that x86 doesn't have the monopoly potential it once had.

alganet 2y ago
Apple Silicon was designed to be efficient at emulating x86-64. If you take that away, it becomes irrelevant (like many other ARM-based processors that struggle to be a good product because of compatibility). Apple has a promising path for x86 liberation, but it is not there yet.
- alganet 2y ago
  > One of the key reasons why Rosetta 2 provides such a high level of translation efficiency is the support of x86-64 memory ordering in the Apple M1 SOC. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1383762124000390 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S138376212...
  - ryao 2y ago
    TSO might be slower than ARM’s memory ordering, but implementing it in hardware is considered faster than implementing it in software.
- astrange 2y ago
  It was designed to be efficient (performance/watt) for everything. Most users aren't using Rosetta. It's not the only ARM CPU with TSO support though, some server platforms also do it.
  - alganet 2y ago
    "efficient for everything": that is a bold claim, can you elaborate more on it? Also, can you name these other platforms? Also, can you back up the information about most users not leveraging Rosetta?
    - astrange 2y ago
      > "efficient for everything": that is a bold claim, can you elaborate more on it? https://share.transistor.fm/s/124f8bc4 https://share.transistor.fm/s/124f8bc4 > Also, can you name these other platforms? Fujitsu A64FX, and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Denver https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Denver > Also, can you back up the information about most users not leveraging Rosetta? Well I couldn't tell you that, but most people just use web browsers.
      - alganet 2y ago
        Sorry, I'm not gonna hear some podcast PR by Apple. I heard their PR already. If most people just use web browsers, why so much effort has been put on Rosetta 2? Sounds very wasteful. Also, A64FX seems to agree with my statement that an ARM with some x86 spice makes a better product than just an ARM. And, if we're talking about making ARM mainstream, Raspberry Pi did more for the platform than Apple and deserves to get the good reputation.
        astrange 2y ago
        Dunno, who says a lot of effort was put into Rosetta 2? It's mostly something that was needed in the first few years so you could run Chrome and Photoshop, but those have been ported now. It's mostly useful for running WINE but that's not super common outside games. That said, a binary recompiler has a lot of uses once you have one: https://valgrind.org https://valgrind.org
        alganet 2y ago
        Let's not walk around in circles. We already estabilished that the chip was designed to facilitate the transition. What you're saying is exactly what I'm saying. Having that x86 translation layer helped them sell macs. It doesn't matter if it is not needed now (it is needed now, otherwise it would have been removed). So, yes. Apple has a popular new band in town. But they still need to play some x86 covers to sell tickets. As I said, they have a good plan, but they're _not there yet_. When they'll be? When x86 translation is not shipped anymore. It's rather simple.

Apple Silicon was designed to be efficient at emulating x86-64. If you take that away, it becomes irrelevant (like many other ARM-based processors that struggle to be a good product because of compatibility). Apple has a promising path for x86 liberation, but it is not there yet.

alganet 2y ago
> One of the key reasons why Rosetta 2 provides such a high level of translation efficiency is the support of x86-64 memory ordering in the Apple M1 SOC. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1383762124000390 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S138376212...
- ryao 2y ago
  TSO might be slower than ARM’s memory ordering, but implementing it in hardware is considered faster than implementing it in software.
astrange 2y ago
It was designed to be efficient (performance/watt) for everything. Most users aren't using Rosetta. It's not the only ARM CPU with TSO support though, some server platforms also do it.
- alganet 2y ago
  "efficient for everything": that is a bold claim, can you elaborate more on it? Also, can you name these other platforms? Also, can you back up the information about most users not leveraging Rosetta?
  - astrange 2y ago
    > "efficient for everything": that is a bold claim, can you elaborate more on it? https://share.transistor.fm/s/124f8bc4 https://share.transistor.fm/s/124f8bc4 > Also, can you name these other platforms? Fujitsu A64FX, and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Denver https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Denver > Also, can you back up the information about most users not leveraging Rosetta? Well I couldn't tell you that, but most people just use web browsers.
    - alganet 2y ago
      Sorry, I'm not gonna hear some podcast PR by Apple. I heard their PR already. If most people just use web browsers, why so much effort has been put on Rosetta 2? Sounds very wasteful. Also, A64FX seems to agree with my statement that an ARM with some x86 spice makes a better product than just an ARM. And, if we're talking about making ARM mainstream, Raspberry Pi did more for the platform than Apple and deserves to get the good reputation.
      - astrange 2y ago
        Dunno, who says a lot of effort was put into Rosetta 2? It's mostly something that was needed in the first few years so you could run Chrome and Photoshop, but those have been ported now. It's mostly useful for running WINE but that's not super common outside games. That said, a binary recompiler has a lot of uses once you have one: https://valgrind.org https://valgrind.org
        alganet 2y ago
        Let's not walk around in circles. We already estabilished that the chip was designed to facilitate the transition. What you're saying is exactly what I'm saying. Having that x86 translation layer helped them sell macs. It doesn't matter if it is not needed now (it is needed now, otherwise it would have been removed). So, yes. Apple has a popular new band in town. But they still need to play some x86 covers to sell tickets. As I said, they have a good plan, but they're _not there yet_. When they'll be? When x86 translation is not shipped anymore. It's rather simple.