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Grooveshark is by no means innocent here. It's hard to get around the fact that they're distributing content without compensating its copyright holders through

Grooveshark is by no means innocent here. It's hard to get around the fact that they're distributing content without compensating its copyright holders through mechanical licenses, and without any agreement with these copyright holders. If it was your copyrighted content being distributed by Grooveshark for profit, with no money going to you, you might feel differently.

rabidsnail 14y ago
If you're following the law (which Grooveshark are), then you are ipso facto innocent.
- WiseWeasel 14y ago
  If you're shafting people, then you're not innocent in my eyes. The law is a set of tools commonly used to give people a sense that there is justice and order in our society. When the tools are found inadequate, new ones are developed. Ultimately, this probably won't work in Grooveshark's favor.
  - rabidsnail 14y ago
    That's just, like, your opinion, man.
    - WiseWeasel 14y ago
      LOL. That may be true, but with a good lawyer (and I'm sure Universal spared no expense here), it may come to be the opinion of the jurors (if there are any in this type of case) and judge as well. My point is that at least to me, it seems obvious that Universal is getting screwed over by Grooveshark, along with all the other copyright holders whose content they're distributing without a license.
      - Natsu 14y ago
        Juries don't get to decide points of law. Judges make those determinations precisely because of what you just said. If you don't like it, you can advocate for a change in the law. Frankly, you underrate the difficulty sites like Grooveshark face. Copyright infringement relies upon whether or not a person has permission and that's not something a computer program can determine. You're using a simple heuristic that doesn't work well at scale, relies upon human judgement (which also doesn't scale), and fails utterly when the marketing departments of these places put out their own leaked versions of things (see Viacom v. YouTube) which are permitted. It's weird how often I hear how "easy" this is. This is HN. If you want me to believe that it's easy, create a computer program that acts as a filter and we'll see how well it works in the real world. I realize that you see someone getting shafted and want to fix that. That's a good thing. The problem is that you advocate for a solution that would merely shaft someone else instead. That's not a good thing.
        WiseWeasel 14y ago
        That's why participation in Grooveshark should be opt-in for copyright holders, not opt-out. They should control how their works are monetized, and they should be compensated for it. It's a matter of respect for the work the artist puts into creating this stuff.
        Natsu 14y ago
        That's not how the law works, though. Music is subject to compulsory licenses. I haven't heard of any sizable movement to get rid of those licenses, either. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_license https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_license If they don't like it, they should change the law, rather than ask the courts to make up new laws for people to follow on the spot.
        WiseWeasel 14y ago
        While it is true that several countries have provisions in their copyright law for compulsory licensing, Grooveshark does not respect the terms of those licenses either. Without a compulsory license covering the country the user is in, and without a separate distribution license, Grooveshark is not authorized to distribute the content.
- fauldsh 14y ago
  They're not legally guilty but morally guilty. It's websites like Grooveshark that weaken the premise for laws like DMCA safe harbour. Their entire business lies in using DMCA in a way in which it was clearly not designed, making it much easier to against such provisions. It's not only big music who might lose out because of them.
  - ben0x539 14y ago
    "Morally guilty" is hugely subjective. I'm sure it's very, very easy to find a lot of people who would argue that Grooveshark's behavior is more moral than that of Universal, and it's hard to argue against them without falling back on legal arguments.
    - fauldsh 14y ago
      The question is not one of who is worse. Universal does some morally reprehensible things, that does not excuse Grooveshark. Grooveshark aren't for anybody other than themselves, they base their entire business on people uploading sharing songs without giving any money to the musicians. If a user uploads the song, not a registered artist then the artist gets nothing and the money goes where? As a result I believe through those actions they weaken the argument for DMCA safe harbour provisions by showing such a clear loophole in the meaning. That's my moral and non-legal argument against Grooveshark (but not for Universal).
  - mullingitover 14y ago
    If they spend shareholder capital to enforce someone else's copyright out of the goodness of their hearts, they're legally guilty of breach of fiduciary duty. The argument that they're abusing the DMCA is a slippery slope. Who else should be helping the copyright holders freeload on their enforcement duties? Your ISP? Computer manufacturers? Your landlord, for not not searching your home regularly for copyright-violating media?
johnmcb 14y ago
Universal must have forgotten to mention that Grooveshark has been trying to work with them for years. It's sad to see what a company does to cripple competition and innovation.
- WiseWeasel 14y ago
  Apparently, they were not able to reach an agreement. Grooveshark should then stop distributing Universal's content and build their business with content partners with whom they can reach agreement. If that's insufficient, maybe they need to question their business model. No one should be coerced by a company into doing business under terms with which they disagree.
  - mullingitover 14y ago
    Grooveshark has removed every file that Universal requested them to remove through the appropriate channels. If they didn't they would've been shut down a long time ago. Grooveshark is completely safe in assuming that any remaining Universal content posted on their site is approved by Universal.
    - WiseWeasel 14y ago
      That's what the courts will determine. I am skeptical.
      - mullingitover 14y ago
        Then I'm happy to free you from your skepticism: that's what the courts have determined. Grooveshark has safe harbor. It's a fact.
        WiseWeasel 14y ago
        What courts have determined that? For what jurisdictions? Seems like if they could take down MegaUpload, Grooveshark should be a cinch.

rabidsnail 14y ago

If you're following the law (which Grooveshark are), then you are ipso facto innocent.

WiseWeasel 14y ago
If you're shafting people, then you're not innocent in my eyes. The law is a set of tools commonly used to give people a sense that there is justice and order in our society. When the tools are found inadequate, new ones are developed. Ultimately, this probably won't work in Grooveshark's favor.
- rabidsnail 14y ago
  That's just, like, your opinion, man.
  - WiseWeasel 14y ago
    LOL. That may be true, but with a good lawyer (and I'm sure Universal spared no expense here), it may come to be the opinion of the jurors (if there are any in this type of case) and judge as well. My point is that at least to me, it seems obvious that Universal is getting screwed over by Grooveshark, along with all the other copyright holders whose content they're distributing without a license.
    - Natsu 14y ago
      Juries don't get to decide points of law. Judges make those determinations precisely because of what you just said. If you don't like it, you can advocate for a change in the law. Frankly, you underrate the difficulty sites like Grooveshark face. Copyright infringement relies upon whether or not a person has permission and that's not something a computer program can determine. You're using a simple heuristic that doesn't work well at scale, relies upon human judgement (which also doesn't scale), and fails utterly when the marketing departments of these places put out their own leaked versions of things (see Viacom v. YouTube) which are permitted. It's weird how often I hear how "easy" this is. This is HN. If you want me to believe that it's easy, create a computer program that acts as a filter and we'll see how well it works in the real world. I realize that you see someone getting shafted and want to fix that. That's a good thing. The problem is that you advocate for a solution that would merely shaft someone else instead. That's not a good thing.
      - WiseWeasel 14y ago
        That's why participation in Grooveshark should be opt-in for copyright holders, not opt-out. They should control how their works are monetized, and they should be compensated for it. It's a matter of respect for the work the artist puts into creating this stuff.
        Natsu 14y ago
        That's not how the law works, though. Music is subject to compulsory licenses. I haven't heard of any sizable movement to get rid of those licenses, either. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_license https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_license If they don't like it, they should change the law, rather than ask the courts to make up new laws for people to follow on the spot.
        WiseWeasel 14y ago
        While it is true that several countries have provisions in their copyright law for compulsory licensing, Grooveshark does not respect the terms of those licenses either. Without a compulsory license covering the country the user is in, and without a separate distribution license, Grooveshark is not authorized to distribute the content.
fauldsh 14y ago
They're not legally guilty but morally guilty. It's websites like Grooveshark that weaken the premise for laws like DMCA safe harbour. Their entire business lies in using DMCA in a way in which it was clearly not designed, making it much easier to against such provisions. It's not only big music who might lose out because of them.
- ben0x539 14y ago
  "Morally guilty" is hugely subjective. I'm sure it's very, very easy to find a lot of people who would argue that Grooveshark's behavior is more moral than that of Universal, and it's hard to argue against them without falling back on legal arguments.
  - fauldsh 14y ago
    The question is not one of who is worse. Universal does some morally reprehensible things, that does not excuse Grooveshark. Grooveshark aren't for anybody other than themselves, they base their entire business on people uploading sharing songs without giving any money to the musicians. If a user uploads the song, not a registered artist then the artist gets nothing and the money goes where? As a result I believe through those actions they weaken the argument for DMCA safe harbour provisions by showing such a clear loophole in the meaning. That's my moral and non-legal argument against Grooveshark (but not for Universal).
- mullingitover 14y ago
  If they spend shareholder capital to enforce someone else's copyright out of the goodness of their hearts, they're legally guilty of breach of fiduciary duty. The argument that they're abusing the DMCA is a slippery slope. Who else should be helping the copyright holders freeload on their enforcement duties? Your ISP? Computer manufacturers? Your landlord, for not not searching your home regularly for copyright-violating media?

johnmcb 14y ago

Universal must have forgotten to mention that Grooveshark has been trying to work with them for years. It's sad to see what a company does to cripple competition and innovation.

WiseWeasel 14y ago
Apparently, they were not able to reach an agreement. Grooveshark should then stop distributing Universal's content and build their business with content partners with whom they can reach agreement. If that's insufficient, maybe they need to question their business model. No one should be coerced by a company into doing business under terms with which they disagree.
- mullingitover 14y ago
  Grooveshark has removed every file that Universal requested them to remove through the appropriate channels. If they didn't they would've been shut down a long time ago. Grooveshark is completely safe in assuming that any remaining Universal content posted on their site is approved by Universal.
  - WiseWeasel 14y ago
    That's what the courts will determine. I am skeptical.
    - mullingitover 14y ago
      Then I'm happy to free you from your skepticism: that's what the courts have determined. Grooveshark has safe harbor. It's a fact.
      - WiseWeasel 14y ago
        What courts have determined that? For what jurisdictions? Seems like if they could take down MegaUpload, Grooveshark should be a cinch.