6 ms·

Security.

pbmonster 2y ago
Nothing inherent makes security on 7 year old hardware any more difficult than on 2 year old hardware. Also, we're getting into the differences between upgrades (what OP said) and updates (the thing necessary to keep up with security) here. I'm having a really hard time coming up with an OS feature introduced in a full OS upgrade within the last 10 years that I actually want. I would have been perfectly content with only getting security updates since.
- frackintoaster 2y ago
  This is.. not true. A lot of hardware change is involved in modern mobile device security. Apple has come a long way from the iPhone 7 in hardware security and no amount of patching software is going to introduce a new cryptographic coprocessor.
  - pbmonster 2y ago
    This is true, but most of that hardware security makes the devices harder to access once stolen/confiscated. For everyday use, against online threats, 7 year old hardware can be made extremely secure - it's what Windows 10 and Linux do every day on much, much older hardware. And sure, a cryptographic coprocessor will make accessing encrypted data a lot more snappy. But decrypting that data in software instead will work just as well, albeit slower. Which really doesn't matter for 90%+ of phone users.
- vundercind 2y ago
  > I'm having a really hard time coming up with an OS feature introduced in a full OS upgrade within the last 10 years that I actually want. - Live Photos. I won't consider any device that doesn't have something analogous, now. They're magical. Non-kid-havers may feel otherwise, but making every photo I snap of my kids a "Live Photo" is one of the most important improvements any technology thingy has provided in my entire life. (I think these are under the 10-year line? Very close, if not) - Transparent OCR and text selection in images. The first time I used an image for a couple full minutes, copying text out of it, before realizing only when I went to share it with someone that it wasn't a PDF but a PNG, was when I knew this had to be a table-stakes your-OS-is-incomplete-without-it feature for me. Sure it could just be a feature of some program I've got installed, but having it in any native image view is way better than having to open some specific program to use it, a thing I could long have done, but never did. Making it first-class, fast, and transparent to the user, makes all the difference. I rely on it all the time now. A couple off the top of my head.
  - datadrivenangel 2y ago
    Those are very nice to have, but if the device still can do basic web and phone things do you really need to upgrade?
    - vundercind 2y ago
      Well, no, but I was working with a bar of: > I'm having a really hard time coming up with an OS feature introduced in a full OS upgrade within the last 10 years that I actually want. which both of those easily clear for me. I bet I could come up with a few more if I read over some OS release notes from the last few years—"oh yeah, that! I use it so much I'd kinda forgotten it was a thing" sort of stuff.
  - Suppafly 2y ago
    Neither of those should require an OS upgrade though, those should be apps.
    - vundercind 2y ago
      You could already OCR. What made me actually use it was exactly its becoming an OS feature. Now it seems weird if there's an image with text and I can't select the text I can plainly see on my screen.
  - pbmonster 2y ago
    On Android, those features where shipped as apps. PixelCam brought live photos, and Google Lens brought seamless OCR to images. And really, that's how it should be. Both of those things are not things the operating system does or should do.
    - vundercind 2y ago
      > Google Lens brought seamless OCR to images. Do you have to open Google Lens to do it? I could already do something like that, just didn't. It's totally different when it Just Works.
  - 2y ago
Cheezmeister 2y ago
Against which threats? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42293962 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42293962
pjmlp 2y ago
Nothing in security prevents updating existing systems with newer code.
- bzzzt 2y ago
  Sometimes newer code is not enough. Older versions of the secure enclave hardware had security leaks and are not software patchable.
  - pjmlp 2y ago
    Still better than not providing any updates at all.
    - stouset 2y ago
      How far back is reasonable to go? How much additional complexity do we tolerate in order to target hardware with diverging feature sets? How much should we hold new software back in order to target older hardware that can’t do the same things without chewing through battery? Frankly I think it’s fucking amazing what Apple has done here, especially when you compare against the Windows ecosystem (at least as of the last time I used it ages ago). The rate of adoption of OS upgrades is such that app developers can actually reasonably target new OS APIs without having to wait a decade for a critical mass of users.
      - ryandrake 2y ago
        I think we should expect basic software security updates and third party app compatibility to continue until the last device’s hardware fails. This idea that a device that millions of people still use is “old and icky and we just don’t wanna support it anymore” is user-hostile and should not be tolerated.
        ozim 2y ago
        But who is going to pay for that? Pushing people to get new devices is pushing people to pay for the updates. Other way would be an iPhone would have to cost idk somewhere in range of $10000 a piece to support it fully until last device hardware fails.
ozim 2y ago
Totally - like people don't have banking apps on their ovens or midi keyboards and are not keeping like half of their lives on a washing machine.
- SoftTalker 2y ago
  I don't like these things on my phone either.
  - vundercind 2y ago
    Where do you handle that stuff? Doing them on a desktop seems like the same thing but less secure and less convenient, and sometimes with fewer features (mobile deposit from a laptop camera would be... awkward at best). Do you instead avoid using computers for things like banking? [EDIT] FWIW I'm in the so-called "Oregon Trail" mini-generation, so have definitely lived in and remember a world far more low-tech and connected than the current one, was a very late smartphone adopter, and have only reluctantly and recently come to admit that my phone is basically the only really useful computer I own for my personal life, and the "real" computers are mostly just toys for me that, at best, can replace only part of my phone's useful-in-my-ordinary-life functionality, in its absence. A high-quality internet-connected sensor and I/O suite in a pocket-sized package is just too damn useful, I've found.
    - SoftTalker 2y ago
      For banking specifically, I use the bank's website. I always prefer websites to apps, because they aren't tied to a particular platform or device. Mobile deposit isn't something I really need, though if I had to deal with a lot of paper checks I could see that being convenient. I could lose my phone tomorrow and it would be a bit of an inconvenience but (by intention) nothing approaching "half my life" is tied to my phone.
    - vel0city 2y ago
      > mobile deposit from a laptop camera would be... awkward at best I was doing at-home deposits using a flatbed scanner and the bank's website (maybe a java applet?) before the iPhone was released. It wasn't too hard, assuming one had a flatbed scanner.

Security.

Nothing inherent makes security on 7 year old hardware any more difficult than on 2 year old hardware. Also, we're getting into the differences between upgrades (what OP said) and updates (the thing necessary to keep up with security) here. I'm having a really hard time coming up with an OS feature introduced in a full OS upgrade within the last 10 years that I actually want. I would have been perfectly content with only getting security updates since.

frackintoaster 2y ago
This is.. not true. A lot of hardware change is involved in modern mobile device security. Apple has come a long way from the iPhone 7 in hardware security and no amount of patching software is going to introduce a new cryptographic coprocessor.
- pbmonster 2y ago
  This is true, but most of that hardware security makes the devices harder to access once stolen/confiscated. For everyday use, against online threats, 7 year old hardware can be made extremely secure - it's what Windows 10 and Linux do every day on much, much older hardware. And sure, a cryptographic coprocessor will make accessing encrypted data a lot more snappy. But decrypting that data in software instead will work just as well, albeit slower. Which really doesn't matter for 90%+ of phone users.
vundercind 2y ago
> I'm having a really hard time coming up with an OS feature introduced in a full OS upgrade within the last 10 years that I actually want. - Live Photos. I won't consider any device that doesn't have something analogous, now. They're magical. Non-kid-havers may feel otherwise, but making every photo I snap of my kids a "Live Photo" is one of the most important improvements any technology thingy has provided in my entire life. (I think these are under the 10-year line? Very close, if not) - Transparent OCR and text selection in images. The first time I used an image for a couple full minutes, copying text out of it, before realizing only when I went to share it with someone that it wasn't a PDF but a PNG, was when I knew this had to be a table-stakes your-OS-is-incomplete-without-it feature for me. Sure it could just be a feature of some program I've got installed, but having it in any native image view is way better than having to open some specific program to use it, a thing I could long have done, but never did. Making it first-class, fast, and transparent to the user, makes all the difference. I rely on it all the time now. A couple off the top of my head.
- datadrivenangel 2y ago
  Those are very nice to have, but if the device still can do basic web and phone things do you really need to upgrade?
  - vundercind 2y ago
    Well, no, but I was working with a bar of: > I'm having a really hard time coming up with an OS feature introduced in a full OS upgrade within the last 10 years that I actually want. which both of those easily clear for me. I bet I could come up with a few more if I read over some OS release notes from the last few years—"oh yeah, that! I use it so much I'd kinda forgotten it was a thing" sort of stuff.
- Suppafly 2y ago
  Neither of those should require an OS upgrade though, those should be apps.
  - vundercind 2y ago
    You could already OCR. What made me actually use it was exactly its becoming an OS feature. Now it seems weird if there's an image with text and I can't select the text I can plainly see on my screen.
- pbmonster 2y ago
  On Android, those features where shipped as apps. PixelCam brought live photos, and Google Lens brought seamless OCR to images. And really, that's how it should be. Both of those things are not things the operating system does or should do.
  - vundercind 2y ago
    > Google Lens brought seamless OCR to images. Do you have to open Google Lens to do it? I could already do something like that, just didn't. It's totally different when it Just Works.
- 2y ago

Cheezmeister 2y ago

Against which threats? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42293962 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42293962

pjmlp 2y ago

Nothing in security prevents updating existing systems with newer code.

bzzzt 2y ago
Sometimes newer code is not enough. Older versions of the secure enclave hardware had security leaks and are not software patchable.
- pjmlp 2y ago
  Still better than not providing any updates at all.
  - stouset 2y ago
    How far back is reasonable to go? How much additional complexity do we tolerate in order to target hardware with diverging feature sets? How much should we hold new software back in order to target older hardware that can’t do the same things without chewing through battery? Frankly I think it’s fucking amazing what Apple has done here, especially when you compare against the Windows ecosystem (at least as of the last time I used it ages ago). The rate of adoption of OS upgrades is such that app developers can actually reasonably target new OS APIs without having to wait a decade for a critical mass of users.
    - ryandrake 2y ago
      I think we should expect basic software security updates and third party app compatibility to continue until the last device’s hardware fails. This idea that a device that millions of people still use is “old and icky and we just don’t wanna support it anymore” is user-hostile and should not be tolerated.
      - ozim 2y ago
        But who is going to pay for that? Pushing people to get new devices is pushing people to pay for the updates. Other way would be an iPhone would have to cost idk somewhere in range of $10000 a piece to support it fully until last device hardware fails.

ozim 2y ago

Totally - like people don't have banking apps on their ovens or midi keyboards and are not keeping like half of their lives on a washing machine.

SoftTalker 2y ago
I don't like these things on my phone either.
- vundercind 2y ago
  Where do you handle that stuff? Doing them on a desktop seems like the same thing but less secure and less convenient, and sometimes with fewer features (mobile deposit from a laptop camera would be... awkward at best). Do you instead avoid using computers for things like banking? [EDIT] FWIW I'm in the so-called "Oregon Trail" mini-generation, so have definitely lived in and remember a world far more low-tech and connected than the current one, was a very late smartphone adopter, and have only reluctantly and recently come to admit that my phone is basically the only really useful computer I own for my personal life, and the "real" computers are mostly just toys for me that, at best, can replace only part of my phone's useful-in-my-ordinary-life functionality, in its absence. A high-quality internet-connected sensor and I/O suite in a pocket-sized package is just too damn useful, I've found.
  - SoftTalker 2y ago
    For banking specifically, I use the bank's website. I always prefer websites to apps, because they aren't tied to a particular platform or device. Mobile deposit isn't something I really need, though if I had to deal with a lot of paper checks I could see that being convenient. I could lose my phone tomorrow and it would be a bit of an inconvenience but (by intention) nothing approaching "half my life" is tied to my phone.
  - vel0city 2y ago
    > mobile deposit from a laptop camera would be... awkward at best I was doing at-home deposits using a flatbed scanner and the bank's website (maybe a java applet?) before the iPhone was released. It wasn't too hard, assuming one had a flatbed scanner.