5 ms·

Validation is by far the least of this site's markup concerns... * Font tags * Tables For Everything (tm) * Inline styles * Inline Javascript * Crazy

by tdavis 18y ago

Validation is by far the least of this site's markup concerns... * Font tags * Tables For Everything (tm) * Inline styles * Inline Javascript * Crazy URLs (&whence=<gibberish>) * Deprecated tag attributes I could go on. I mean, it doesn't even have a Doctype. Technically, you could self-invalidate it by looking at the first source line. I've given up caring and just accept the numerous annoyances, such as the entire page having to load before seeing anything (thanks, tables!) Edit: Actually, the only thing I still care about is that other sites don't see this as acceptable and do it too.

ars 18y ago
What's wrong with inline styles and javascript?
- run4yourlives 18y ago
  Invalidates the best practice of "separation of content from presentation".
  - qqq 18y ago
    The code that generates it might have those things separate.
  - xenophanes 18y ago
    The code that generates it might have those things separate.
    - run4yourlives 18y ago
      Yes, but I'd gladly let a designer loose on my css, and an editor loose on the content, but neither of them will go anywhere near my code.
      - ntoshev 18y ago
        So it's a matter of personal preference after all. pg doesn't have another person for graphical design of the site.
        run4yourlives 18y ago
        Well, you could take the same argument and use it regarding source control, but that doesn't invalidate the fact that it's a best practice.
    - wlievens 18y ago
      Excellent point. It's like complaining that a compiler generates unreadable machine code.
  - gruseom 18y ago
    "Best practices" have no intrinsic value.
    - run4yourlives 18y ago
      Of course they do. Best Practices are a result of several people finding fault in various implementation methods, usually sometime after initial implementation. They're not the law, but unless there's a pretty specific reason to not follow them, you can bet that they'll save you heartache sometime in the future.
      - gruseom 18y ago
        Perhaps I should have italicized intrinsic. Those practices are means, not ends. People don't pay for them, and users don't care. I'm not saying they have no value, but their value is relative. So when I notice someone, or myself, treating them as absolute (as, for example, equating "object-oriented" with "good" programming, as was common 10 years ago), to me that's a red flag. In the case of HN, if you can't point to anything about the site itself that matters as a result, then going on about standards compliance and best practices seems irrelevant.
        run4yourlives 18y ago
        I don't disagree with that.
  - deleted 18y ago
    [deleted]
- tdavis 18y ago
  Aside from separation of content and presentation as mentioned, it creates serious accessibility issues and page bloat, among various other problems which we in the standards movement have tried to impart upon fellow developers for years. I encourage you to look into these issues. Here's a write-up I found from Mozilla, but there are many: https://developer.mozilla.org/en/The_Business_Benefits_of_Web_Standards https://developer.mozilla.org/en/The_Business_Benefits_of_We...
  - Tichy 18y ago
    I thought inline styles are a web standard (not sure about Javascript, but there are standards for it, too).
    - run4yourlives 18y ago
      They are, they're just not a best practice. Editing css outside of your html without having to worry about inline styles is a lovely thing to do.
  - ntoshev 18y ago
    Can you elaborate on the accessibility issues and page bloat, because the link doesn't. It lists "Increase traffic" and "Happier staff" among the benefits. Do you think pg would be happier if he followed some guidelines for web design? ;)
    - tdavis 18y ago
      I think pg would be less happy because he'd have to admit I was right about this whole silly standards thing ;) As for your questions: The page bloat issue is pretty apparent: it takes a lot more markup to wrap everything in tables than it does to use floated / positioned block elements such as <div/>. Individually marking up each <font/> tag with color, bgcolor, etc. also wastes a shitload of bytes. Accessibility is another issue entirely, but is generally hindered by inline Javascript because such JS is not based on progressive enhancement; rather, it directly hijacks events on specific elements rather than improving the experience for JS-enabled browsers. In the case of HN, it appears that "vote" links work with or without Javascript, though the latter loads a blank page after voting. This is certainly better than the alternative. Additionally, superfluous markup has a tendency to disrupt the functioning of assisted-reading devices such as screen readers. There's a whole world of people out there advocating the use of web standards, all for very practical reasons. I'm not going to re-post all their thoughts and arguments here, but if you're not educated in the matter I highly recommend becoming so, if for no other reason than understanding what we crazy people are screaming about. Many people far more dedicated than I have written countless articles on the matter; a good place to start would be Roger Johansson's blog: http://www.456bereastreet.com/ http://www.456bereastreet.com/ but there are many others.
dcurtis 18y ago
My biggest gripe is that the white margins on the right and left are totally screwed up in desktop browsers and especially on the iPhone (forcing it to be zoomed out). Because of the way the site is built in tables, the white borders just waste whitespace and it annoys me to absolutely no end.
- Tichy 18y ago
  Never noticed it - maybe the white margins are intentional? I just assumed they are.
Freaky 18y ago
> I've given up caring and just accept the numerous annoyances, such as the entire page having to load before seeing anything (thanks, tables!) Hm? Both Opera and Firefox render HN's tables progressively. My main problem with HN is the almost complete lack of comment formatting; no quotes, seemingly no links other than just pasting a full URL, and as you've demonstrated, no lists except using preformatted text.
fauigerzigerk 18y ago
CSS is so horrible for layouting that I find it hard to blame anyone for using tables.
- tdavis 18y ago
  Strange. I haven't used a table for page layout since the 90s and I haven't missed them, either. Yes, it takes more effort to not use tables, but since tables are not meant for page layout it makes sense to avoid them.
  - fauigerzigerk 18y ago
    CSS isn't meant for page layout either. That's pretty obvious if you look at the kind of low level nastiness that you have to put into your code in order to get even the simplest layouts.
    - iron_ball 18y ago
      Amen. If CSS were good for page layout, we wouldn't need special CSS frameworks just to get a three-column page. A three-column page with independent column heights would not be called "the holy grail" -- it would be effortless. CSS sucks. (edit: So do tables. Really, HTML, CSS, and Javascript all sucks. Browsers suck. The web environment sucks. We use it because of what it lets us do, not because it's a friendly programming environment.)
    - ntoshev 18y ago
      It is meant for page layout, only it's not that good at it.
  - andreyf 18y ago
    Yes, it takes more effort to not use tables, but since tables are not meant for page layout it makes sense to avoid them. If CSS is meant for layout, and tables aren't meant for layout, wouldn't you expect CSS to be easier to use?
    - 18y ago

by tdavis 18y ago

ars 18y ago

What's wrong with inline styles and javascript?

run4yourlives 18y ago
Invalidates the best practice of "separation of content from presentation".
- qqq 18y ago
  The code that generates it might have those things separate.
- xenophanes 18y ago
  The code that generates it might have those things separate.
  - run4yourlives 18y ago
    Yes, but I'd gladly let a designer loose on my css, and an editor loose on the content, but neither of them will go anywhere near my code.
    - ntoshev 18y ago
      So it's a matter of personal preference after all. pg doesn't have another person for graphical design of the site.
      - run4yourlives 18y ago
        Well, you could take the same argument and use it regarding source control, but that doesn't invalidate the fact that it's a best practice.
  - wlievens 18y ago
    Excellent point. It's like complaining that a compiler generates unreadable machine code.
- gruseom 18y ago
  "Best practices" have no intrinsic value.
  - run4yourlives 18y ago
    Of course they do. Best Practices are a result of several people finding fault in various implementation methods, usually sometime after initial implementation. They're not the law, but unless there's a pretty specific reason to not follow them, you can bet that they'll save you heartache sometime in the future.
    - gruseom 18y ago
      Perhaps I should have italicized intrinsic. Those practices are means, not ends. People don't pay for them, and users don't care. I'm not saying they have no value, but their value is relative. So when I notice someone, or myself, treating them as absolute (as, for example, equating "object-oriented" with "good" programming, as was common 10 years ago), to me that's a red flag. In the case of HN, if you can't point to anything about the site itself that matters as a result, then going on about standards compliance and best practices seems irrelevant.
      - run4yourlives 18y ago
        I don't disagree with that.
- deleted 18y ago
  [deleted]
tdavis 18y ago
Aside from separation of content and presentation as mentioned, it creates serious accessibility issues and page bloat, among various other problems which we in the standards movement have tried to impart upon fellow developers for years. I encourage you to look into these issues. Here's a write-up I found from Mozilla, but there are many: https://developer.mozilla.org/en/The_Business_Benefits_of_Web_Standards https://developer.mozilla.org/en/The_Business_Benefits_of_We...
- Tichy 18y ago
  I thought inline styles are a web standard (not sure about Javascript, but there are standards for it, too).
  - run4yourlives 18y ago
    They are, they're just not a best practice. Editing css outside of your html without having to worry about inline styles is a lovely thing to do.
- ntoshev 18y ago
  Can you elaborate on the accessibility issues and page bloat, because the link doesn't. It lists "Increase traffic" and "Happier staff" among the benefits. Do you think pg would be happier if he followed some guidelines for web design? ;)
  - tdavis 18y ago
    I think pg would be less happy because he'd have to admit I was right about this whole silly standards thing ;) As for your questions: The page bloat issue is pretty apparent: it takes a lot more markup to wrap everything in tables than it does to use floated / positioned block elements such as <div/>. Individually marking up each <font/> tag with color, bgcolor, etc. also wastes a shitload of bytes. Accessibility is another issue entirely, but is generally hindered by inline Javascript because such JS is not based on progressive enhancement; rather, it directly hijacks events on specific elements rather than improving the experience for JS-enabled browsers. In the case of HN, it appears that "vote" links work with or without Javascript, though the latter loads a blank page after voting. This is certainly better than the alternative. Additionally, superfluous markup has a tendency to disrupt the functioning of assisted-reading devices such as screen readers. There's a whole world of people out there advocating the use of web standards, all for very practical reasons. I'm not going to re-post all their thoughts and arguments here, but if you're not educated in the matter I highly recommend becoming so, if for no other reason than understanding what we crazy people are screaming about. Many people far more dedicated than I have written countless articles on the matter; a good place to start would be Roger Johansson's blog: http://www.456bereastreet.com/ http://www.456bereastreet.com/ but there are many others.

dcurtis 18y ago

My biggest gripe is that the white margins on the right and left are totally screwed up in desktop browsers and especially on the iPhone (forcing it to be zoomed out). Because of the way the site is built in tables, the white borders just waste whitespace and it annoys me to absolutely no end.

Tichy 18y ago
Never noticed it - maybe the white margins are intentional? I just assumed they are.

Freaky 18y ago

> I've given up caring and just accept the numerous annoyances, such as the entire page having to load before seeing anything (thanks, tables!) Hm? Both Opera and Firefox render HN's tables progressively. My main problem with HN is the almost complete lack of comment formatting; no quotes, seemingly no links other than just pasting a full URL, and as you've demonstrated, no lists except using preformatted text.

fauigerzigerk 18y ago

CSS is so horrible for layouting that I find it hard to blame anyone for using tables.

tdavis 18y ago
Strange. I haven't used a table for page layout since the 90s and I haven't missed them, either. Yes, it takes more effort to not use tables, but since tables are not meant for page layout it makes sense to avoid them.
- fauigerzigerk 18y ago
  CSS isn't meant for page layout either. That's pretty obvious if you look at the kind of low level nastiness that you have to put into your code in order to get even the simplest layouts.
  - iron_ball 18y ago
    Amen. If CSS were good for page layout, we wouldn't need special CSS frameworks just to get a three-column page. A three-column page with independent column heights would not be called "the holy grail" -- it would be effortless. CSS sucks. (edit: So do tables. Really, HTML, CSS, and Javascript all sucks. Browsers suck. The web environment sucks. We use it because of what it lets us do, not because it's a friendly programming environment.)
  - ntoshev 18y ago
    It is meant for page layout, only it's not that good at it.
- andreyf 18y ago
  Yes, it takes more effort to not use tables, but since tables are not meant for page layout it makes sense to avoid them. If CSS is meant for layout, and tables aren't meant for layout, wouldn't you expect CSS to be easier to use?
  - 18y ago