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Can murderers change – or are they born 'evil'?

14 2y ago
I think it is pretty obvious not all murderers are the same. Killing someone in self defense though murder is hardly someone who is evil or needs to change. I think what this article fails to do is distinguish the different types of murderers. It discusses a guy with extreme mental illness who kills his mom. I do not think that person is born evil and in the article it states he eventually expresses his remorse and sadness that he killed his mom. But other type of murderers, they are just not right in the head. And maybe that too is a type of mental illness but some people are just evil and killing is in their nature. Those people can not change. Maybe they can reach a point in there life that they don't need to act on their impulses but that dark passenger does not leave them. And since they can not ever shed that dark passenger they can never be let back into society again.
- yawpitch 2y ago
  > And since they can not ever shed that dark passenger they can never be let back into society again. Words written by someone still sufficiently (and blissfully) ignorant enough of their own dark passenger they can still write these words. May you one day learn why those words are so deeply ignorant… may and everyone survive your meeting your dark passenger(s). Everyone can change; most don’t want to.
  - 14 2y ago
    No not everyone can change. There are broken people out there full stop. Nothing can take that away from them. That is like saying Homosexuality is wrong they just don't want to change. No they can not change. That is who they are. And for some people that is that desire to be evil. I am not ignorant of my dark passenger in fact quite the opposite. I just have a stronger light passenger guiding my way.
- ksaj 2y ago
  Murder requires premeditation, so that precludes self defense. The two parts are: The killing of someone without legal justification (such as self defense), and the premeditated plan to accomplish it. There is something called "mens rea," the guilty mindset, that informs the court of guilt or innocence. This will get you into manslaughter and other shades or degrees of killing, too. The rest of what you said, I generally agree with. If you believe someone with a mental condition can sometimes "come around," then you'd also have to believe that someone who killed because of a DSM-5 defined condition that lists it as a symptom or hallmark can be cured of the triggers that made them do it. But I'm sure in most cases that privilege has to be long fought for. I always thought the Biblical command should have been "Thou shalt not murder" since it is absolutely possible to kill without even a trace of mens rea. Auto accidents are a good example. And war killing in the Bible, as in modern life, isn't considered murder either (Geneva Convention subjects aside). There is legal justification.
yawpitch 2y ago
There are no evil people. There certainly are no people who are born evil. There is, in fact, no such thing as evil. Evil is a delusion. So is good. There are only people and what actions they feel are justified in the moment. In a sufficiently stressful moment, any of us can, and under the right circumstances will, justify any action.
- JSDevOps 2y ago
  Exactly
JSDevOps 2y ago
I don’t believe you’re born as anything. You are shaped by your experiences. You’re a blank slate when you pop out. How do you have any frame of reference. How would you understand ANYTHING any concepts let alone murder. You’re shaped by society.
- zzo38computer 2y ago
  I would think that it may be possible to be born with a greater or lesser disposition of aggressiveness and other stuff, although "evil" isn't one of these things. Furthermore, these (and other) things can change due to anything (experiences, situations, etc), and do not apply directly since any situation will be different.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
keernan 2y ago
Good and evil is an interesting discussion all by itself. However, philosophy aside, certain things are suggestive of biological/genetic factors involved in murder. Start with the fact that murder is committed by males at a much higher rate than females. Furthermore, human violence has always been predominately a male trait. Until you can explain why males engage in murder and all violence at a much higher rate than females, I don't think you can convince me learned behavior is the sole factor involved in anti-social behavior. I am convinced biology/genetics create a huge predisposition to violence.
- keernan 2y ago
  By way of expanding upon my comment above...let's try to remove ethics and morality from the discussion. All animals that live in groups have 'rules' that protect the group from behaviors that threaten the group's existence. A group member who behaves in an way that threatens the group itself, is shunned, ostracized, or killed. Human society is no different. During relatively modern times, we have adopted written rules of behavior with procedures to judge and punish violators to the extreme of imprisonment and even death. And prison populations throughout the world are overwhelmingly male. Further evidence that there is almost certainly a biological/genetic factor causing males to behave in a manner resulting in society imprisoning males at a much higher rates than females. To be clear, it is also very true that only a small percentage of males are ever charged with criminal (anti-social) behavior. So, there are obviously other factors involved beyond just being male. However, that doesn't change my point that genetic traits almost certainly play a role. There is a huge body of science that has been studying human anti-social behavior for centuries.
- zzo38computer 2y ago
  I mostly agree; however, biological/genetic factors do not control everything. They may be involved in such traits as aggressiveness etc, but I would think that even these traits are not certain and can be changed (by many things, including your own ideas, but also many kind of external factors), and this does not include such things as "evil" and does not directly include "murder" (although it can be included indirectly, since it is related to things which are more directly affected by genetic factors, which can end up with such things). There is the question of exactly which things the biological/genetic factors affect and how much, and scientific experiments may be able to figure out some of these such things. Regardless of that, it does not mean that no murderers can ever changes (although some might not change as easily), that genetics can predict if you are a murderer with 99% accuracy, that sex or gender can predict it with 99% accuracy, etc. But, it does mean that it can have a statistical effect.

14 2y ago

I think it is pretty obvious not all murderers are the same. Killing someone in self defense though murder is hardly someone who is evil or needs to change. I think what this article fails to do is distinguish the different types of murderers. It discusses a guy with extreme mental illness who kills his mom. I do not think that person is born evil and in the article it states he eventually expresses his remorse and sadness that he killed his mom. But other type of murderers, they are just not right in the head. And maybe that too is a type of mental illness but some people are just evil and killing is in their nature. Those people can not change. Maybe they can reach a point in there life that they don't need to act on their impulses but that dark passenger does not leave them. And since they can not ever shed that dark passenger they can never be let back into society again.

yawpitch 2y ago
> And since they can not ever shed that dark passenger they can never be let back into society again. Words written by someone still sufficiently (and blissfully) ignorant enough of their own dark passenger they can still write these words. May you one day learn why those words are so deeply ignorant… may and everyone survive your meeting your dark passenger(s). Everyone can change; most don’t want to.
- 14 2y ago
  No not everyone can change. There are broken people out there full stop. Nothing can take that away from them. That is like saying Homosexuality is wrong they just don't want to change. No they can not change. That is who they are. And for some people that is that desire to be evil. I am not ignorant of my dark passenger in fact quite the opposite. I just have a stronger light passenger guiding my way.
ksaj 2y ago
Murder requires premeditation, so that precludes self defense. The two parts are: The killing of someone without legal justification (such as self defense), and the premeditated plan to accomplish it. There is something called "mens rea," the guilty mindset, that informs the court of guilt or innocence. This will get you into manslaughter and other shades or degrees of killing, too. The rest of what you said, I generally agree with. If you believe someone with a mental condition can sometimes "come around," then you'd also have to believe that someone who killed because of a DSM-5 defined condition that lists it as a symptom or hallmark can be cured of the triggers that made them do it. But I'm sure in most cases that privilege has to be long fought for. I always thought the Biblical command should have been "Thou shalt not murder" since it is absolutely possible to kill without even a trace of mens rea. Auto accidents are a good example. And war killing in the Bible, as in modern life, isn't considered murder either (Geneva Convention subjects aside). There is legal justification.

yawpitch 2y ago

There are no evil people. There certainly are no people who are born evil. There is, in fact, no such thing as evil. Evil is a delusion. So is good. There are only people and what actions they feel are justified in the moment. In a sufficiently stressful moment, any of us can, and under the right circumstances will, justify any action.

JSDevOps 2y ago
Exactly

JSDevOps 2y ago

I don’t believe you’re born as anything. You are shaped by your experiences. You’re a blank slate when you pop out. How do you have any frame of reference. How would you understand ANYTHING any concepts let alone murder. You’re shaped by society.

zzo38computer 2y ago
I would think that it may be possible to be born with a greater or lesser disposition of aggressiveness and other stuff, although "evil" isn't one of these things. Furthermore, these (and other) things can change due to anything (experiences, situations, etc), and do not apply directly since any situation will be different.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

keernan 2y ago

Good and evil is an interesting discussion all by itself. However, philosophy aside, certain things are suggestive of biological/genetic factors involved in murder. Start with the fact that murder is committed by males at a much higher rate than females. Furthermore, human violence has always been predominately a male trait. Until you can explain why males engage in murder and all violence at a much higher rate than females, I don't think you can convince me learned behavior is the sole factor involved in anti-social behavior. I am convinced biology/genetics create a huge predisposition to violence.

keernan 2y ago
By way of expanding upon my comment above...let's try to remove ethics and morality from the discussion. All animals that live in groups have 'rules' that protect the group from behaviors that threaten the group's existence. A group member who behaves in an way that threatens the group itself, is shunned, ostracized, or killed. Human society is no different. During relatively modern times, we have adopted written rules of behavior with procedures to judge and punish violators to the extreme of imprisonment and even death. And prison populations throughout the world are overwhelmingly male. Further evidence that there is almost certainly a biological/genetic factor causing males to behave in a manner resulting in society imprisoning males at a much higher rates than females. To be clear, it is also very true that only a small percentage of males are ever charged with criminal (anti-social) behavior. So, there are obviously other factors involved beyond just being male. However, that doesn't change my point that genetic traits almost certainly play a role. There is a huge body of science that has been studying human anti-social behavior for centuries.
zzo38computer 2y ago
I mostly agree; however, biological/genetic factors do not control everything. They may be involved in such traits as aggressiveness etc, but I would think that even these traits are not certain and can be changed (by many things, including your own ideas, but also many kind of external factors), and this does not include such things as "evil" and does not directly include "murder" (although it can be included indirectly, since it is related to things which are more directly affected by genetic factors, which can end up with such things). There is the question of exactly which things the biological/genetic factors affect and how much, and scientific experiments may be able to figure out some of these such things. Regardless of that, it does not mean that no murderers can ever changes (although some might not change as easily), that genetics can predict if you are a murderer with 99% accuracy, that sex or gender can predict it with 99% accuracy, etc. But, it does mean that it can have a statistical effect.