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I spend a lot of time talking to non-I.T people due to my partner being a veterinarian and the local improv/music scene. The absolute disdain people have for th

I spend a lot of time talking to non-I.T people due to my partner being a veterinarian and the local improv/music scene. The absolute disdain people have for the idea of sitting at a desk and taking orders from pointy-haired manager is humbling. They're very envious of things like remote work, etc, so we have it pretty cool in lots of ways, but I think there's something to learn for many programmers on the mental health/spirituality front from that contempt. The happiest psychologist I know is many, many times more content than the happiest programmer I know at a corporate job. The most passionate software engineers I know might be able to claim similar joy, but they have overwhelmingly quit their corporate gigs and fly solo.

bruce511 2y ago
>> The most passionate software engineers I know might be able to claim similar joy, but they have overwhelmingly quit their corporate gigs and fly solo. Yes, I'd agree with this. You make more money in a corporate gig, but if you're doing it for passion, not money, then the money doesn't overcome the corporate shackles.
syndicatedjelly 2y ago
"contempt" isn't the word I'd used to describe my feelings towards this existence. It would be more like a deep, existential sadness. That life can fall into these local minimums of optimization - where everything is, on average, good. - I'm happy, but not very - I'm financially successful, but not very - I like what I do, but too much - I'm comfortable, but not too comfortable. It's like my entire personality, likes, and dislikes have been smeared into a 2-dimensional caricature and propped up by a couple supports, for everyone to see and admire. This sort of existence is safe, inoffensive, and unremarkable. Love your blog btw, it gives me confidence to be more like myself in my own life.
- tonyedgecombe 2y ago
  >I'm financially successful, but not very I read about some research recently where the researcher asked people how much money they earned and how much they would need to feel financially secure. No matter how much they earned they all felt they needed about 50% more. It seems we are programmed to feel mildly dissatisfied no matter what our circumstances. I guess that is what drives us on.
  - pdimitar 2y ago
    This point of view is very popular and I've seen zero evidence for it throughout my entire life. Consider you might be living in a bubble where "the hedonistic treadmill" tired trope makes perfect sense... and that bubble is fairly small. Ever thought of it? Practically every person I ever asked told me more or less this: "Yeah sure, who would not want 100K a month? But I am not willing to forfeit my personal and family life for it and that kind of money always comes with a catch. Nah man. I'd be happy with 20K a month but it ain't ever happening while there's always the next a-hole CEO who wants a bigger yacht than his bros in the golf club." So yeah, I heard your take many times and I have not seen it out there. Not once.
    - tonyedgecombe 2y ago
      I’m not sure whether you are agreeing or disagreeing with the points I made. Or perhaps you just had something you wanted to get off your chest.
      - pdimitar 2y ago
        Me saying that I heard your takes many times but never seen it anywhere should have tipped you off that I disagree. Not sure what your response contributes to any discussion though. You did not try to defend or enrich your position.
        tonyedgecombe 2y ago
        Assuming you were responding to my statement "It seems we are programmed to feel mildly dissatisfied no matter what our circumstances." I can't see how that squares with the paper I talked about. Of course you can raise your anecdotes but that proves nothing.
        pdimitar 2y ago
        What you said are also anecdotes which also prove nothing. The hedonistic treadmill does not exist. It's a feel-good construct, I found.
Swizec 2y ago
> The most passionate software engineers I know might be able to claim similar joy, but they have overwhelmingly quit their corporate gigs and fly solo. I have done the solo thing and have come to realize I much prefer coding for others. There’s just too much annoying bullshit in running a business and I don’t need to deal with almost any of that as an employee despite getting basically all the same freedom, impact, and influence as a high level engineer. There’s even a point where things switch from your boss telling you what to do to your boss asking you what to do.
- 8f2ab37a-ed6c 2y ago
  Agreed. Managing, fundraising, legal, roadmaps, payroll, hiring, sales, marketing, customer support etc. If you're a coder running a company, it's likely you might not get to code at all, or ever again if you're very successful. I wouldn't do my own business if my hope was to be more hands-on with software dev unless you find a partner to whom you outsource all of the above, but now you're back to the situation where you don't have full control anymore. If you're happy with not having a bigger slice of the pie, it's easier to just focus on SWE as an employee and let someone else figure out all of the other stuff unless you really crave the company building aspect.
  - Swizec 2y ago
    > If you're happy with not having a bigger slice of the pie Not to mention a smaller slice of a way bigger pie can still be a lot bigger in absolute terms. With much lower risk.
    - 8f2ab37a-ed6c 2y ago
      Indeed.
- pdimitar 2y ago
  > There’s even a point where things switch from your boss telling you what to do to your boss asking you what to do. How? Actionable step by step, please. Measurable, with before-and-after descriptions.

bruce511 2y ago

>> The most passionate software engineers I know might be able to claim similar joy, but they have overwhelmingly quit their corporate gigs and fly solo. Yes, I'd agree with this. You make more money in a corporate gig, but if you're doing it for passion, not money, then the money doesn't overcome the corporate shackles.

syndicatedjelly 2y ago

"contempt" isn't the word I'd used to describe my feelings towards this existence. It would be more like a deep, existential sadness. That life can fall into these local minimums of optimization - where everything is, on average, good. - I'm happy, but not very - I'm financially successful, but not very - I like what I do, but too much - I'm comfortable, but not too comfortable. It's like my entire personality, likes, and dislikes have been smeared into a 2-dimensional caricature and propped up by a couple supports, for everyone to see and admire. This sort of existence is safe, inoffensive, and unremarkable. Love your blog btw, it gives me confidence to be more like myself in my own life.

tonyedgecombe 2y ago
>I'm financially successful, but not very I read about some research recently where the researcher asked people how much money they earned and how much they would need to feel financially secure. No matter how much they earned they all felt they needed about 50% more. It seems we are programmed to feel mildly dissatisfied no matter what our circumstances. I guess that is what drives us on.
- pdimitar 2y ago
  This point of view is very popular and I've seen zero evidence for it throughout my entire life. Consider you might be living in a bubble where "the hedonistic treadmill" tired trope makes perfect sense... and that bubble is fairly small. Ever thought of it? Practically every person I ever asked told me more or less this: "Yeah sure, who would not want 100K a month? But I am not willing to forfeit my personal and family life for it and that kind of money always comes with a catch. Nah man. I'd be happy with 20K a month but it ain't ever happening while there's always the next a-hole CEO who wants a bigger yacht than his bros in the golf club." So yeah, I heard your take many times and I have not seen it out there. Not once.
  - tonyedgecombe 2y ago
    I’m not sure whether you are agreeing or disagreeing with the points I made. Or perhaps you just had something you wanted to get off your chest.
    - pdimitar 2y ago
      Me saying that I heard your takes many times but never seen it anywhere should have tipped you off that I disagree. Not sure what your response contributes to any discussion though. You did not try to defend or enrich your position.
      - tonyedgecombe 2y ago
        Assuming you were responding to my statement "It seems we are programmed to feel mildly dissatisfied no matter what our circumstances." I can't see how that squares with the paper I talked about. Of course you can raise your anecdotes but that proves nothing.
        pdimitar 2y ago
        What you said are also anecdotes which also prove nothing. The hedonistic treadmill does not exist. It's a feel-good construct, I found.

Swizec 2y ago

> The most passionate software engineers I know might be able to claim similar joy, but they have overwhelmingly quit their corporate gigs and fly solo. I have done the solo thing and have come to realize I much prefer coding for others. There’s just too much annoying bullshit in running a business and I don’t need to deal with almost any of that as an employee despite getting basically all the same freedom, impact, and influence as a high level engineer. There’s even a point where things switch from your boss telling you what to do to your boss asking you what to do.

8f2ab37a-ed6c 2y ago
Agreed. Managing, fundraising, legal, roadmaps, payroll, hiring, sales, marketing, customer support etc. If you're a coder running a company, it's likely you might not get to code at all, or ever again if you're very successful. I wouldn't do my own business if my hope was to be more hands-on with software dev unless you find a partner to whom you outsource all of the above, but now you're back to the situation where you don't have full control anymore. If you're happy with not having a bigger slice of the pie, it's easier to just focus on SWE as an employee and let someone else figure out all of the other stuff unless you really crave the company building aspect.
- Swizec 2y ago
  > If you're happy with not having a bigger slice of the pie Not to mention a smaller slice of a way bigger pie can still be a lot bigger in absolute terms. With much lower risk.
  - 8f2ab37a-ed6c 2y ago
    Indeed.
pdimitar 2y ago
> There’s even a point where things switch from your boss telling you what to do to your boss asking you what to do. How? Actionable step by step, please. Measurable, with before-and-after descriptions.