3 ms·

It's not "old fashioned", I think you are being fed propaganda by these NGOs. Sadly, same goes for a huge part of the mainstream media that becomes an echo cha

It's not "old fashioned", I think you are being fed propaganda by these NGOs. Sadly, same goes for a huge part of the mainstream media that becomes an echo chamber for them (Guardian, NYT for example that used to be reference of truth but lost that status). Don't take my word for it, please take the time to read opposite views and try to honestly make your own opinion.

whaaaaat 2y ago
Do you have any credible sources? "Do your own research" is a pretty thin rebuttal to "here's a source by a well regarded NGO". And if you are saying Amnesty International is feeding propaganda through the mainstream media, that's also going to need some credible sources. They are generally considered a fairly highly factual organization.
mullingitover 2y ago
I didn't say it was old fashioned, I said I was old fashioned because I can't cheer for the government effectively 'disappearing' large numbers of people. In the US we've enthusiastically taken up arms against governments which did this type of thing. We have parades to honor people who died fighting against it. Amnesty International isn't editorializing and this isn't a remotely controversial claim: the roundups happened via emergency powers which, by design, denied due process. It's not a secret, El Salvador wasn't trying to hide this.
- bluSCALE4 2y ago
  The secret isn't that El Salvador is breaking human rights law, the secret is that El Salvador is an amazing place to visit and it won't break the bank. I can say first hand that Mexico and Ecuador have become sketchy; you can't feel completely safe anywhere IMO in those countries.
  - warkdarrior 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - bluSCALE4 2y ago
      God you're dense. Who said I visited El Salvador? Even if I did, judge much? Are you on the way to jump off a cliff because of the arms we're gifting Israel?
- deadbabe 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - mullingitover 2y ago
    If you wholeheartedly trust the government, this is obviously the way to go. The problem, especially in Latin America, is there's a long history of guys taking power, "doing whatever needs to be done to get the bad guys," and then...never giving up power. Usually killing lots of people who might get in their way. Often with full support of backers in the US government. But surely this time it's different!
    - deadbabe 2y ago
      Is it not in fact different?
  - ajsnigrutin 2y ago
    > See for example shoplifters who just take things off a shelf and walk out knowing no one will stop them because the law says you can’t go fuck them up. I never understood how some parts of US just allow that. I live in a country where we have very poor property protection laws, and police still gets routinely called for underage kids stealing chocolates, actually comes, and a whole procedure is done, including parents, a judge, etc. Influenced by movies, I always assumed that a shopkeeper in US would just do the cowboy thing (I know i'm exaggerating a bit) and take out the gun and make the thief put the stuff back, or worse. Watching videos of whole gangs of people just coming inside a store, filling their baskets/carts and leaving while noone does anything seemed so surreal. In a rich country, you'd expect property to be protected, but it doesn't seem so. Even in some of the poorest countries in the world, something like this wouldn't happen, because even random people in the street would go out of their way to stop (and beat) a thief, and the police wouldn't be arresting a passerby for tripping an escaping thief or tackling them to the ground, but would focus on the thief. I mean sure... allowing people to steal offsets the "social security" from the government to retailers, but the safety issue remains.
    - mullingitover 2y ago
- jahewson 2y ago
  > In the US we've enthusiastically taken up arms against governments which did this type of thing If by “enthusiastically” you mean “reluctantly”, then yes.
plufz 2y ago
What would be Amnesty’s agenda in feeding us propaganda about El Salvador?
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
newyankee 2y ago
Not just that, the tradeoffs in developing countries are different on the ground. They have to do practical decision making based on limited resources and issues. The alternative is simply criminals taking over.
- threeseed 2y ago
  Do you have evidence that basic human rights and due process is unusually expensive and not feasible for developing countries ? Because that doesn't seem to be the case given we've seen much of the world become developed over the last 50 years. And almost all have a functioning judicial system.
  - bluesign 2y ago
    It is not only in developing countries, even in developed countries it is a bit of a problem, the rise of “far right” in Europe etc is an example to this.
1839175912 2y ago
* Latin America has a sad history of using what's been called "enforced disappearance" [0]. It's sickening that it seems to be happening again in El Salvador in 2024. * There's no justification for ethnic or ideologic cleansings of any type, period. No, making tourists happy is not a good reason for state terrorism (nothing is). * Bukele is untrustworthy. See "liquid ideology" on [1], just for a start. -- 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enforced_disappearance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enforced_disappearance 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayib_Bukele#Social_issues https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayib_Bukele#Social_issues
threeseed 2y ago
> I think you are being fed propaganda by these NGOs. Which parts of Amnesty International's statement are inaccurate and why ? You know because we want to form our own opinion.
Tostino 2y ago
NYT has never been different than it is now. It has always been a willing propaganda outlet, and has always pushed the agenda ownership wanted. You just liked when it was saying before.

whaaaaat 2y ago

Do you have any credible sources? "Do your own research" is a pretty thin rebuttal to "here's a source by a well regarded NGO". And if you are saying Amnesty International is feeding propaganda through the mainstream media, that's also going to need some credible sources. They are generally considered a fairly highly factual organization.

mullingitover 2y ago

I didn't say it was old fashioned, I said I was old fashioned because I can't cheer for the government effectively 'disappearing' large numbers of people. In the US we've enthusiastically taken up arms against governments which did this type of thing. We have parades to honor people who died fighting against it. Amnesty International isn't editorializing and this isn't a remotely controversial claim: the roundups happened via emergency powers which, by design, denied due process. It's not a secret, El Salvador wasn't trying to hide this.

bluSCALE4 2y ago
The secret isn't that El Salvador is breaking human rights law, the secret is that El Salvador is an amazing place to visit and it won't break the bank. I can say first hand that Mexico and Ecuador have become sketchy; you can't feel completely safe anywhere IMO in those countries.
- warkdarrior 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - bluSCALE4 2y ago
    God you're dense. Who said I visited El Salvador? Even if I did, judge much? Are you on the way to jump off a cliff because of the arms we're gifting Israel?
deadbabe 2y ago
[flagged]
- mullingitover 2y ago
  If you wholeheartedly trust the government, this is obviously the way to go. The problem, especially in Latin America, is there's a long history of guys taking power, "doing whatever needs to be done to get the bad guys," and then...never giving up power. Usually killing lots of people who might get in their way. Often with full support of backers in the US government. But surely this time it's different!
  - deadbabe 2y ago
    Is it not in fact different?
- ajsnigrutin 2y ago
  > See for example shoplifters who just take things off a shelf and walk out knowing no one will stop them because the law says you can’t go fuck them up. I never understood how some parts of US just allow that. I live in a country where we have very poor property protection laws, and police still gets routinely called for underage kids stealing chocolates, actually comes, and a whole procedure is done, including parents, a judge, etc. Influenced by movies, I always assumed that a shopkeeper in US would just do the cowboy thing (I know i'm exaggerating a bit) and take out the gun and make the thief put the stuff back, or worse. Watching videos of whole gangs of people just coming inside a store, filling their baskets/carts and leaving while noone does anything seemed so surreal. In a rich country, you'd expect property to be protected, but it doesn't seem so. Even in some of the poorest countries in the world, something like this wouldn't happen, because even random people in the street would go out of their way to stop (and beat) a thief, and the police wouldn't be arresting a passerby for tripping an escaping thief or tackling them to the ground, but would focus on the thief. I mean sure... allowing people to steal offsets the "social security" from the government to retailers, but the safety issue remains.
  - mullingitover 2y ago
jahewson 2y ago
> In the US we've enthusiastically taken up arms against governments which did this type of thing If by “enthusiastically” you mean “reluctantly”, then yes.

plufz 2y ago

What would be Amnesty’s agenda in feeding us propaganda about El Salvador?

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

newyankee 2y ago

Not just that, the tradeoffs in developing countries are different on the ground. They have to do practical decision making based on limited resources and issues. The alternative is simply criminals taking over.

threeseed 2y ago
Do you have evidence that basic human rights and due process is unusually expensive and not feasible for developing countries ? Because that doesn't seem to be the case given we've seen much of the world become developed over the last 50 years. And almost all have a functioning judicial system.
- bluesign 2y ago
  It is not only in developing countries, even in developed countries it is a bit of a problem, the rise of “far right” in Europe etc is an example to this.

1839175912 2y ago

* Latin America has a sad history of using what's been called "enforced disappearance" [0]. It's sickening that it seems to be happening again in El Salvador in 2024. * There's no justification for ethnic or ideologic cleansings of any type, period. No, making tourists happy is not a good reason for state terrorism (nothing is). * Bukele is untrustworthy. See "liquid ideology" on [1], just for a start. -- 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enforced_disappearance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enforced_disappearance 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayib_Bukele#Social_issues https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayib_Bukele#Social_issues

threeseed 2y ago

> I think you are being fed propaganda by these NGOs. Which parts of Amnesty International's statement are inaccurate and why ? You know because we want to form our own opinion.

Tostino 2y ago

NYT has never been different than it is now. It has always been a willing propaganda outlet, and has always pushed the agenda ownership wanted. You just liked when it was saying before.