7 ms·

What is even the point of a web CA that isn't trusted by all of the major players? Is there one?

beeflet 2y ago
I suppose it allows you to enable third party control and censorship. If you look at microsoft's censorship of bing in china for example, they are more than willing to bend the knee if it means they can get ahead.
- alganet 2y ago
  As a brazillian, I find this very unlikely. In 2013, when the same party was in power, SERPRO was tasked with replacing Microsoft in key aspects, such as government email (which was handled by Outlook Server at that time) and operating systems. The main reason was fear of espionage. So, in reality, we are more afraid of the US spying on us than random internet dissidents.
  - serial_dev 2y ago
    As a non Brazilian, sometimes when a government says a company is spying on its citizens, they mean that they want access, too, to the spying and censoring apparatus.
    - alganet 2y ago
      I see your point. Maybe if I was in government I would think the same. Catch criminals before they act, stuff like that (I'm just being the devil's advocate here). This is a dillema, and the worst kind. The kind citizens know nothing about, so the only possible way to talk about it is to speculate. I am, however, too old to speculate about these things anymore.
tialaramex 2y ago
These are generally government CAs, so, typically the situation is Microsoft sold the government Windows, and as part of that deal (at least tacitly) agreed to the CA being trusted, and so every system that's trusting these certificates is a Windows PC anyway, running Edge because the whole point was the government will only use Windows and pays Microsoft $$$. Why bake it into everybody else's Windows? If you make say a Brazil Government-only Windows which trusts this CA instead, I guarantee somebody crucial in Brazil will buy a 3rd party Windows laptop independently and it doesn't work with this CA's certificates and that ends up as Microsoft's problem to fix, so, easier to just have every Windows device trust the CA. They'll have an assurance from the CA that it won't do this sort of crap, and that's enough, plausible deniability. Microsoft will say they take this "very seriously" and do nothing and it'll blow over. After all this stuff happened before and it'll happen again, and Windows will remain very popular.
- sneak 2y ago
  Windows is less popular every year.
  - notimetorelax 2y ago
    I looked at the graphs at Statista. I don’t think it’s so clear cut. Mobile OSs have pushed it down, but it seem to dominate PC market. Do you have a graph that shows its decline on computers, not mobile phones? Or in absolute unit counts?
    - flir 2y ago
      I think that might be a bit of an unfair caveat. People do real work on mobile OSes. They shop and communicate on mobile OSes, and occasionally organise revolutions. (Although I'm not sure why "Netraft confirms, Windows is dying" is a useful comment here anyway. Windows is a behemoth.)
    - lysace 2y ago
      https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/worldwide/#monthly-200901-202410 https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/worldwide... There's a clear but slow trend on desktop. Jan 2009: 95.4% Windows Jan 2016: 85.2% Windows Jan 2024: 73.0% Windows In e.g. US it's going down faster, desktop market share now at 62%: https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/united-states-of-america#monthly-200901-202410 https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/united-st...
  - saghm 2y ago
    I feel confident in guessing that any net changes in Windows popularity have close to no relation to Microsoft's policies around trusted CA. The number of users who are worried about sketchy certificates being trusted by default are dwarfed by the number of users who don't have any idea what a "trusted CA" is but care about more "visible" things like UI changes, performance, and how hard Windows is pushing Edge and other things they don't want.
    - 2y ago
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

I suppose it allows you to enable third party control and censorship. If you look at microsoft's censorship of bing in china for example, they are more than willing to bend the knee if it means they can get ahead.

alganet 2y ago
As a brazillian, I find this very unlikely. In 2013, when the same party was in power, SERPRO was tasked with replacing Microsoft in key aspects, such as government email (which was handled by Outlook Server at that time) and operating systems. The main reason was fear of espionage. So, in reality, we are more afraid of the US spying on us than random internet dissidents.
- serial_dev 2y ago
  As a non Brazilian, sometimes when a government says a company is spying on its citizens, they mean that they want access, too, to the spying and censoring apparatus.
  - alganet 2y ago
    I see your point. Maybe if I was in government I would think the same. Catch criminals before they act, stuff like that (I'm just being the devil's advocate here). This is a dillema, and the worst kind. The kind citizens know nothing about, so the only possible way to talk about it is to speculate. I am, however, too old to speculate about these things anymore.

tialaramex 2y ago

These are generally government CAs, so, typically the situation is Microsoft sold the government Windows, and as part of that deal (at least tacitly) agreed to the CA being trusted, and so every system that's trusting these certificates is a Windows PC anyway, running Edge because the whole point was the government will only use Windows and pays Microsoft $$$. Why bake it into everybody else's Windows? If you make say a Brazil Government-only Windows which trusts this CA instead, I guarantee somebody crucial in Brazil will buy a 3rd party Windows laptop independently and it doesn't work with this CA's certificates and that ends up as Microsoft's problem to fix, so, easier to just have every Windows device trust the CA. They'll have an assurance from the CA that it won't do this sort of crap, and that's enough, plausible deniability. Microsoft will say they take this "very seriously" and do nothing and it'll blow over. After all this stuff happened before and it'll happen again, and Windows will remain very popular.

sneak 2y ago
Windows is less popular every year.
- notimetorelax 2y ago
  I looked at the graphs at Statista. I don’t think it’s so clear cut. Mobile OSs have pushed it down, but it seem to dominate PC market. Do you have a graph that shows its decline on computers, not mobile phones? Or in absolute unit counts?
  - flir 2y ago
    I think that might be a bit of an unfair caveat. People do real work on mobile OSes. They shop and communicate on mobile OSes, and occasionally organise revolutions. (Although I'm not sure why "Netraft confirms, Windows is dying" is a useful comment here anyway. Windows is a behemoth.)
  - lysace 2y ago
    https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/worldwide/#monthly-200901-202410 https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/worldwide... There's a clear but slow trend on desktop. Jan 2009: 95.4% Windows Jan 2016: 85.2% Windows Jan 2024: 73.0% Windows In e.g. US it's going down faster, desktop market share now at 62%: https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/united-states-of-america#monthly-200901-202410 https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/united-st...
- saghm 2y ago
  I feel confident in guessing that any net changes in Windows popularity have close to no relation to Microsoft's policies around trusted CA. The number of users who are worried about sketchy certificates being trusted by default are dwarfed by the number of users who don't have any idea what a "trusted CA" is but care about more "visible" things like UI changes, performance, and how hard Windows is pushing Edge and other things they don't want.
  - 2y ago

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]