4 ms·

Here's what I want: by law, any device that i own should work perpetually until broken by me. If it requires 3rd party servers, let me configure alternatives. a

Here's what I want: by law, any device that i own should work perpetually until broken by me. If it requires 3rd party servers, let me configure alternatives. and if you sunset the servers completely you are mandated to release either: complete documentation how to create your own service to keep device working, or a full binary that supports ALL the features that were available throughout device's lifecycle. If you go bankrupt you are mandated to just open source your software in that case. and that's a minimum I'll settle on.

RHSeeger 2y ago
> If you go bankrupt you are mandated to just open source your software in that case. Or insurance that covers the complete refund cost of all assets sold. There are cases where you may be using 3rd party software that you license that you cannot open source. And, in that case, you're on the hook for refunding the cost of the item.
- Xelbair 2y ago
  No, because in case of insolvency some parties can get priority, and the assets will be auctioned off to just cover the priority ones.
  - RHSeeger 2y ago
    That's why I said insurance to cover it. And the insurance would be dedicated to covering that; it wouldn't be accessible to pay off other creditors.
- account42 2y ago
  Refunding the purchase price is rarely enough to make you whole. At there very least it would need to be inflation adjusted and also compensate you for any additional costs incurred (installation, any loss of income due to unavailable until a replacement can be found, time required to select a suitable replacement, emotional damage).
  - RHSeeger 2y ago
    I guess the other option would be to require that any licensed binaries for the software needed to include a transfer of license (for the purpose of rebuilding the software to a runnable state) to any parties that purchased the product using that blob licensed library.
WJW 2y ago
What about mechanical devices that simply wear out? Even electronic devices can fail due to circumstances controlled neither by you nor by the manufacturer, like lightning strikes introducing violent transients in the grid supply. Also, cool beans that that is the minimum you'll settle on but how on earth would anyone enforce that? Open sourced software is not enough by far to make something work perpetually: the software will need to be run somewhere and most likely (since you are talking about some sort of net-connected software if this is relevant in the first place) will need security patching to keep up with CVEs. Who is going to pay for that? I don't think it will be the bankrupt entity that stopped existing 10 years ago.
- Ukv 2y ago
  > What about mechanical devices that simply wear out? I think wear-and-tear from usage falls under "until broken by me", which I see as intended to cover ordinary breakage that would exist even in absence of copyright and trade secrets. > Also, cool beans that that is the minimum you'll settle on but how on earth would anyone enforce that? A large part of the solution would be to stop enforcing copyright, patents, DMCA anti-circumvention clause, etc. in these cases. Companies can be legally compelled to release the server software with fines or restrictions on future sales for non-compliance. In case of bankruptcy, it can be obtained as part of the bankruptcy process going through the company's assets. > Open sourced software is not enough by far to make something work perpetually: the software will need to be run somewhere and most likely (since you are talking about some sort of net-connected software if this is relevant in the first place) will need security patching to keep up with CVEs. Some of these devices may legitimately need to be network-connected, but very few legitimately need to be Internet-connected. A local network with a Raspberry Pi running the server is likely fine in most cases. > Who is going to pay for that? I don't think it will be the bankrupt entity that stopped existing 10 years ago. I don't think the idea is to force someone to pay to keep servers up or actively maintain the software - but rather to remove artificial barriers in the way of owners/enthusiasts/repair-shops/etc. that already want to do so. Unless we're applying this retroactively, it'd be an entity currently going through bankruptcy, and their obligation is just the hand-over the source code in its current state.
mindslight 2y ago
We need straight anti-trust unbundling. You should not be allowed to abuse your market position as a hardware manufacturer to push your network-connected software by tying them together as one product. At a minimum, the software should have to be developed by a separate business unit, using only documentation that's been published for everyone. (and yes, having been an embedded hardware/software designer, including for things like power electronics, I'm quite aware of the implications)
- Xelbair 2y ago
  Hardware and software needs a hard separation honestly. I think that firmware shouldn't ever be bound by license, meanwhile software should be bound by it but mandated to be updatable/replacable by user - even with custom one. Then let manufacturers pick where they set the boundary - do they add extra complexity of updating and replacing software to the component? or do they go for licenseless firmware?

RHSeeger 2y ago

> If you go bankrupt you are mandated to just open source your software in that case. Or insurance that covers the complete refund cost of all assets sold. There are cases where you may be using 3rd party software that you license that you cannot open source. And, in that case, you're on the hook for refunding the cost of the item.

Xelbair 2y ago
No, because in case of insolvency some parties can get priority, and the assets will be auctioned off to just cover the priority ones.
- RHSeeger 2y ago
  That's why I said insurance to cover it. And the insurance would be dedicated to covering that; it wouldn't be accessible to pay off other creditors.
account42 2y ago
Refunding the purchase price is rarely enough to make you whole. At there very least it would need to be inflation adjusted and also compensate you for any additional costs incurred (installation, any loss of income due to unavailable until a replacement can be found, time required to select a suitable replacement, emotional damage).
- RHSeeger 2y ago
  I guess the other option would be to require that any licensed binaries for the software needed to include a transfer of license (for the purpose of rebuilding the software to a runnable state) to any parties that purchased the product using that blob licensed library.

WJW 2y ago

What about mechanical devices that simply wear out? Even electronic devices can fail due to circumstances controlled neither by you nor by the manufacturer, like lightning strikes introducing violent transients in the grid supply. Also, cool beans that that is the minimum you'll settle on but how on earth would anyone enforce that? Open sourced software is not enough by far to make something work perpetually: the software will need to be run somewhere and most likely (since you are talking about some sort of net-connected software if this is relevant in the first place) will need security patching to keep up with CVEs. Who is going to pay for that? I don't think it will be the bankrupt entity that stopped existing 10 years ago.

Ukv 2y ago
> What about mechanical devices that simply wear out? I think wear-and-tear from usage falls under "until broken by me", which I see as intended to cover ordinary breakage that would exist even in absence of copyright and trade secrets. > Also, cool beans that that is the minimum you'll settle on but how on earth would anyone enforce that? A large part of the solution would be to stop enforcing copyright, patents, DMCA anti-circumvention clause, etc. in these cases. Companies can be legally compelled to release the server software with fines or restrictions on future sales for non-compliance. In case of bankruptcy, it can be obtained as part of the bankruptcy process going through the company's assets. > Open sourced software is not enough by far to make something work perpetually: the software will need to be run somewhere and most likely (since you are talking about some sort of net-connected software if this is relevant in the first place) will need security patching to keep up with CVEs. Some of these devices may legitimately need to be network-connected, but very few legitimately need to be Internet-connected. A local network with a Raspberry Pi running the server is likely fine in most cases. > Who is going to pay for that? I don't think it will be the bankrupt entity that stopped existing 10 years ago. I don't think the idea is to force someone to pay to keep servers up or actively maintain the software - but rather to remove artificial barriers in the way of owners/enthusiasts/repair-shops/etc. that already want to do so. Unless we're applying this retroactively, it'd be an entity currently going through bankruptcy, and their obligation is just the hand-over the source code in its current state.

mindslight 2y ago

We need straight anti-trust unbundling. You should not be allowed to abuse your market position as a hardware manufacturer to push your network-connected software by tying them together as one product. At a minimum, the software should have to be developed by a separate business unit, using only documentation that's been published for everyone. (and yes, having been an embedded hardware/software designer, including for things like power electronics, I'm quite aware of the implications)

Xelbair 2y ago
Hardware and software needs a hard separation honestly. I think that firmware shouldn't ever be bound by license, meanwhile software should be bound by it but mandated to be updatable/replacable by user - even with custom one. Then let manufacturers pick where they set the boundary - do they add extra complexity of updating and replacing software to the component? or do they go for licenseless firmware?