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I agree with most of what you said. As a minor nit, my understanding is that you call into a library, whereas a framework calls into you. Since React typically

• qudat 2y ago
  That’s a nice description but it is not perfect. React does one thing well: view = func(state) It doesn’t have a great story for virtually anything outside of that single function which means for many large apps it is never enough.
  • hasanhaja 2y ago
    But most people don't use it for the only thing it does well and pick appropriate approaches for the other parts; they use it for everything and this has transpired into the reinventing of browser mechanisms like CSS in user land. This is the real problem. Not the tool "React" (or others like it) but the cult that vehemently denies their bets were wrong and doesn't take responsibility for the real damage it's caused.
  • johnfn 2y ago
    I didn't say it does? I am just spliting hairs over the definition of framework.
  • proto-n 2y ago
    It seems you only want to call MVC frameworks frameworks? But there's millions of other types of frameworks for thousands of purposes. Framework is a generic term (for which the definition is usually the calls into you/you call into it thing). What it does and whether it's a framework is two completely orthogonal things.
    • qudat 2y ago
      > It seems you only want to call MVC frameworks frameworks? No, I'm illustrating the limited scope of React. I wouldn't call a chunk of code that handles the V in MVC a framework. > for which the definition is usually the calls into you/you call into it thing Again there's nuance here: import { useEffect, useState } from "react"; import { createRoot } from 'react-dom/client'; document.body.innerHTML = '<div id="app"></div>'; const root = createRoot(document.getElementById('app')); root.render(<App />); function App() { const counter = useState(0); useEffect(() => { console.log('effect') }, []); return <h1>hello world: {counter}</h1> } I'm "calling into" react (3) times here, while react is calling "into me" (1) time. Are we saying any external source code that accepts a function as a parameter is considered a framework? All react does is render/diff/patch your dom, everything else is up to the end-developer. Would you call `express` a framework? Again this is semantics but look at all the react frameworks that exist on top of react, why do those exist?
      • lmm 2y ago
        > I'm "calling into" react (3) times here, while react is calling "into me" (1) time. It's calling into you three or more times, invisibly, if I remember the details of what useEffect and useState actually do at runtime correctly. Which rather illustrates the point. > Are we saying any external source code that accepts a function as a parameter is considered a framework? Code that accepts a function for narrowly scoped use where the control flow is still under your control (e.g. map/reduce/filter libraries) is probably not a framework. But external code where you register a callback that gets called some time later, not under your control, is pretty much the definition of a framework.
        • Izkata 2y ago
          > It's calling into you three or more times, invisibly, if I remember the details of what useEffect and useState actually do at runtime correctly. Which rather illustrates the point. If they were using useState() correctly and provided a button or link to call the update function, yeah, React would call into their code as many times as the user clicked the button. As it is though, it's just once (useEffect with that second argument is "only run the passed-in function once on mount").