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The article says > > This is entirely in keeping with how the KDE project as a whole works: for instance, if you search the KDE Applications website for "text

by pooper 2y ago

The article says > > This is entirely in keeping with how the KDE project as a whole works: for instance, if you search the KDE Applications website for "text editor", you'll find three: Kate, KWrite, and Nota. If you search for "file manager", you'll find four; and "web browser", three. Within the desktop, there are multiple start-menu tools, multiple app-switching panel-button bars, and so on. Even the "About" option on the "Help" menu is duplicated: one tells you version information (in one of two version formats, either decimal-number based or date-based), and one tells you about KDE as a whole. I think they are ALMOST right. Yes, different people use different apps. Yes, it should be possible to download fifteen different web browsers or twenty five different text editors. However, there should be a coherent DEFAULTS story. By default, when you install an operating system, we should have ONE default COMPLETE web browser, one COMPLETE text editor, and so on. I don't think when you install an operating system, it should install an office productivity software suite such as Microsoft Office or Libre Office by default.

ndsipa_pomu 2y ago
> I don't think when you install an operating system, it should install an office productivity software suite such as Microsoft Office or Libre Office by default. I don't see why not (apart from the Microsoft example which would be monopoly abuse). If I install a standard Linux desktop distribution (rather than a server oriented one) then I'd be quite happy to have LibreOffice or Gnumeric etc. installed. Office tools are used so frequently that it makes sense to include them along with e.g. photo editing tools.
- wongarsu 2y ago
  And even ignoring OneNote and trial version of MS Office in more recent Windows versions, Windows has always shipped with WordPad. Microsoft's vision in the 90s was that the operating system should come with basic productivity tools like a plain text editor (notepad), a rich text editor suitable for writing letters (wordpad), a graphics editor (paint), software for sending and receiving fax and scanning documents (Windows Fax and Scan), along with a media player, a web browser and some games. You could be productive in the office with just a plain Windows install.
- hakfoo 2y ago
  I find it weird if a distribution doesn't have it. At the end of the day, a big selling point for FOSS products is always going to be the free-beer aspect. Bits are free, take as many as you want. But there's also the appeal of centralized management through the distribution. Even if it's technically an opt-in checkbox during the installer, it's convenient that 95% of your software comes from a central source with a single standard way to get updates. I'd expect this is even more exciting at scale-- if you're managing 5,000 desktops, the FOSS answer is "have a cron job run apt-get update;apt-get upgrade a few times a month" and the Windows answer is "here's an aftermarket tool, and you're probably going to have to script a bunch of individual installers and deal with licensing gimmicks to make them all properly launch."
Y_Y 2y ago
> there should be a coherent DEFAULTS story. I see the appeal to someone who is new and shows up with an intention like "idk, just give me the internet lol". That's a perfectly fine and overwhelmingly common way to use a computer. I think even a mainstream distro that's offering a KDE desktop should do that. For the KDE project itself though it's always put a lot of store in offering lots and lots of choice (maybe the main ideological difference with Gnome). Of course all settings have to have a default, and randomizing or forcing a choice on first use would be a hassle, but you aren't pushed down any particular path. I like this and I'm glad there's a desktop environment with an attitude like this. I think that there is an attitude being evinced by the popularity of search terms like "best photo editor free 2024”. People do they same on forums, they would like to get the "best" one and ideally wouldn't have to spend the time and energy on finding it. Sometimes there is a natural choice, sometimes there's a choice that seems natural to some and not others, and the common case (imho) is that it's complicated. If you're just doing something once and it doesn't matter, use any tools that works, if you'll use it often and the outcome is important then there's not substitute for trying different things. You might view it as multi-armed bandit problem with a subjective value function. Whether the value varies much between people is something else you'd have to figure out.
kwanbix 2y ago
I completely agree about the importance of defaults. I’ve always believed in the phrase: “It’s the defaults, stupid.” In my experience, 90% of users just stick with whatever defaults they’re given, while the other 10% are the power users who customize things. This explains why you see poorly designed defaults like the Windows 10 taskbar, where the search bar takes up about 33~50% of the space by default: https://www.isumsoft.com/images/backup-recovery/install-windows-10-on-new-ssd/windows-10-installed.png https://www.isumsoft.com/images/backup-recovery/install-wind... Another thing I think Linux distros should focus on—and I know some already do—is renaming default apps to be more intuitive. For example, instead of calling it “Caja” (or is it “Kaja”?), just call it File Manager (Caja) so new users know what it is. As for including an Office Suite during installation, why not? At the very least, make it a pre-selected option that’s easy to deselect if someone doesn’t want it.

by pooper 2y ago

ndsipa_pomu 2y ago

> I don't think when you install an operating system, it should install an office productivity software suite such as Microsoft Office or Libre Office by default. I don't see why not (apart from the Microsoft example which would be monopoly abuse). If I install a standard Linux desktop distribution (rather than a server oriented one) then I'd be quite happy to have LibreOffice or Gnumeric etc. installed. Office tools are used so frequently that it makes sense to include them along with e.g. photo editing tools.

wongarsu 2y ago
And even ignoring OneNote and trial version of MS Office in more recent Windows versions, Windows has always shipped with WordPad. Microsoft's vision in the 90s was that the operating system should come with basic productivity tools like a plain text editor (notepad), a rich text editor suitable for writing letters (wordpad), a graphics editor (paint), software for sending and receiving fax and scanning documents (Windows Fax and Scan), along with a media player, a web browser and some games. You could be productive in the office with just a plain Windows install.
hakfoo 2y ago
I find it weird if a distribution doesn't have it. At the end of the day, a big selling point for FOSS products is always going to be the free-beer aspect. Bits are free, take as many as you want. But there's also the appeal of centralized management through the distribution. Even if it's technically an opt-in checkbox during the installer, it's convenient that 95% of your software comes from a central source with a single standard way to get updates. I'd expect this is even more exciting at scale-- if you're managing 5,000 desktops, the FOSS answer is "have a cron job run apt-get update;apt-get upgrade a few times a month" and the Windows answer is "here's an aftermarket tool, and you're probably going to have to script a bunch of individual installers and deal with licensing gimmicks to make them all properly launch."

Y_Y 2y ago

> there should be a coherent DEFAULTS story. I see the appeal to someone who is new and shows up with an intention like "idk, just give me the internet lol". That's a perfectly fine and overwhelmingly common way to use a computer. I think even a mainstream distro that's offering a KDE desktop should do that. For the KDE project itself though it's always put a lot of store in offering lots and lots of choice (maybe the main ideological difference with Gnome). Of course all settings have to have a default, and randomizing or forcing a choice on first use would be a hassle, but you aren't pushed down any particular path. I like this and I'm glad there's a desktop environment with an attitude like this. I think that there is an attitude being evinced by the popularity of search terms like "best photo editor free 2024”. People do they same on forums, they would like to get the "best" one and ideally wouldn't have to spend the time and energy on finding it. Sometimes there is a natural choice, sometimes there's a choice that seems natural to some and not others, and the common case (imho) is that it's complicated. If you're just doing something once and it doesn't matter, use any tools that works, if you'll use it often and the outcome is important then there's not substitute for trying different things. You might view it as multi-armed bandit problem with a subjective value function. Whether the value varies much between people is something else you'd have to figure out.

kwanbix 2y ago

I completely agree about the importance of defaults. I’ve always believed in the phrase: “It’s the defaults, stupid.” In my experience, 90% of users just stick with whatever defaults they’re given, while the other 10% are the power users who customize things. This explains why you see poorly designed defaults like the Windows 10 taskbar, where the search bar takes up about 33~50% of the space by default: https://www.isumsoft.com/images/backup-recovery/install-windows-10-on-new-ssd/windows-10-installed.png https://www.isumsoft.com/images/backup-recovery/install-wind... Another thing I think Linux distros should focus on—and I know some already do—is renaming default apps to be more intuitive. For example, instead of calling it “Caja” (or is it “Kaja”?), just call it File Manager (Caja) so new users know what it is. As for including an Office Suite during installation, why not? At the very least, make it a pre-selected option that’s easy to deselect if someone doesn’t want it.