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I'm not really convinced that removing the need for sleep would result in me being more productive primarily because I'm not an always-on computer. The average

I'm not really convinced that removing the need for sleep would result in me being more productive primarily because I'm not an always-on computer. The average day for me has huge differences in terms of my productivity at any given moment. I need downtime anyway, if I didn't sleep I believe that I'd end up vegging out in some way because I'm not doing 24 hours of flashcards. The discussions on here also always seem to centre around a very stereotypical "I am a vat for my brain" way of thinking. Realistically whilst sleeping other things are going on, muscles are recovering, digestive processes are going on, other forms of growing, etc, it's not just the brain. There are also things like circadian rhythm, sunshine, etc. I woke up early today and had a few hours of darkness, I can feel my mood and brainpower improving as the sun rises. We are not bots, this stuff is analogue.

mlyle 2y ago
Yah, but if you needed 2 hours less of sleep, there'd still be myriad advantages. Times when it's not possible to get enough sleep: you'd be less sleep-deprived. And, if it's truly without negative side effects: maybe you get 20 minutes more useful time per day and increase your ratio of conscious relaxation to useful time. I'd call that a pretty big win.
- naming_the_user 2y ago
  It's interesting but I feel as if the discussion is a bit flawed because it feels very binary, i.e. sleep 8 hours = have 16 hours non sleep, sleep 6 hours = have 18 hours non sleep, and we assume that each hour is the same regardless, but it won't be. It feels a bit like - well could I engineer myself to require 1500 calories a day instead of 2000. Maybe. But as a result there would definitely be some downside, maybe I'd be less physically strong, or have less endurance, or have a bit less processing power, or have to rest more, etc. If we straight up designed a more efficient body, then I'd rather keep eating 2k and be "more powerful", or maybe I'd go to 4k! Maybe I can sleep for 2 fewer hours and retain the same or more productivity. Or maybe I could sleep for the full amount of hours but be more well rested and as a result be more productive in the awake time. That sort of thing.
  - mlyle 2y ago
    Yah -- note that I didn't posit that things would be the same at the margin (120 minutes more conscious time without other downsides yields only 16% of "useful" time and assumes the rest goes to minimally useful relaxation and recreation). > There is no free lunch. Selective pressure and evolution are pretty good at optimizing... but not perfect. What they optimized for, also, is not quality of life in the modern world. It's likely there are a whole lot of free lunches available, or at least big wins with relatively low opportunity costs. It's certainly not great to discard potential improvements because of an assumption that what we have must be optimum.
    - naming_the_user 2y ago
      Sorry, I edited my post a bit so what you've quoted isn't there any more but I agree fully with what you're saying. I guess what would be cool is being able to play with the sliders. People already do this in other ways, for example people at the extreme end of bodybuilding or strongman are almost certainlhy explicitly shortening their lifespans for a shorter term benefit, calorie restriction looks like it lets you go the other way, etc. Maybe you could even fiddle and have 16 hours of sleep and overclock your brain for the other 8 being super-intelligent, lol.
    - jvanderbot 2y ago
      It might make sense to just drop the term optimization when discussing natural selection. It's not like "Natural Selection" was given an ecological niche and optimized from scratch the being for that niche. That mental model implies there's not much to be done and any changes would produce a less useful product. A more apt term would be "Refactored" or even "Patched". It's more like a giant ugly legacy software system was added to, and the result was just enough to keep going in the new system. I like that analogy better because it implies: 1. There is room for optimization, and 2. Any minor change is likely to break things far away due to the continuous re-patching and legacy cruft. Both of which seem correct.
      - iterateoften 2y ago
        > "Natural Selection" was given an ecological niche and optimized from scratch the being for that niche I think you are conflating natural selection the process with organisms that are a result of natural selection. Natural selection isn’t a process that is intentionally made by anyone, but a way we describe a simplified model slew of complex processes. Also conflated is what you are optimizing for. The only thing natural selection optimizes for is survival. That’s it. Nothing else matters expect which individuals survive long enough to pass their genes to the next generation. As a result niches develop and as each generation survives compared to their peers their survival strategies are optimized. Optimization perfectly describes what is happening to the survivability and reproduction of certain genes. You appear to be working backwards. That there was a niche and evolution somehow crafted an organism to fit that niche. That is misleading. Genes replicate, and in a certain context some genes survived and replicated better than in some other context. So genes evolved in that new context creating a niche.
Kiro 2y ago
> I woke up early today and had a few hours of darkness, I can feel my mood and brainpower improving as the sun rises I can't relate at all. Where I live the days are consumed by darkness in the winter and I see no effect on my mood or brainpower.
- mewpmewp2 2y ago
  You don't? I'm also in an area with mostly darkness in the winter and I have to say I do feel depressed, and I wish it was always summer. I think it's the worst aspects about my location. Otherwise I think it's great. From the name I assume you are from Finland, which I am not, but supposedly Finnish people are the happiest in the World - which I'm not sure if it's actually true. The joke is that every Finnish person after seeing the study wonders why they are the only unhappy one.
trallnag 2y ago
If sunlight improves your mood, add more lights to your place? Around my desk where I spend a lot of my time I have lights with a combined power of 150 watts and it's noticeable
XorNot 2y ago
Productivity is irrelevant: when you have young children, any given amount of time where you can be awake and functional is incredibly valuable - particularly if it works outside the hours your children sleep. Like I'll settle for "tired but no accruing sleep debt".
- naming_the_user 2y ago
  Are we assuming then that you're not treating the children? Because otherwise they just sleep less as well and now you're back to square one. I suppose you can full dystopia it, go the other way, make them need 12-16 hours a sleep a day whilst you only need 4 ;)
  - XorNot 2y ago
    I mean I also don't give my son caffeine (because he's 2) so this seems like a reasonable assumption. Teenagers stay up too late anyway so I'd say this sort of thing would be a good way to hopefully reduce the effects of sleep deprivation.
    - rekado 2y ago
      Teenagers have to get up too early. Teenagers experience a shift in their circadian rhythm and also require more sleep than before puberty. School schedules do not account for this shift.
  - TeMPOraL 2y ago
    Not treating the children will only level the playing field. My two daughters, 5yo and 3.5yo, both sleep from "as late as they can get away with" to "about an hour earlier than parents would like to wake up". Also, whoever came up with the idea of nap hour in kindergartens has a special circle of hell reserved for them.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

mlyle 2y ago

Yah, but if you needed 2 hours less of sleep, there'd still be myriad advantages. Times when it's not possible to get enough sleep: you'd be less sleep-deprived. And, if it's truly without negative side effects: maybe you get 20 minutes more useful time per day and increase your ratio of conscious relaxation to useful time. I'd call that a pretty big win.

naming_the_user 2y ago
It's interesting but I feel as if the discussion is a bit flawed because it feels very binary, i.e. sleep 8 hours = have 16 hours non sleep, sleep 6 hours = have 18 hours non sleep, and we assume that each hour is the same regardless, but it won't be. It feels a bit like - well could I engineer myself to require 1500 calories a day instead of 2000. Maybe. But as a result there would definitely be some downside, maybe I'd be less physically strong, or have less endurance, or have a bit less processing power, or have to rest more, etc. If we straight up designed a more efficient body, then I'd rather keep eating 2k and be "more powerful", or maybe I'd go to 4k! Maybe I can sleep for 2 fewer hours and retain the same or more productivity. Or maybe I could sleep for the full amount of hours but be more well rested and as a result be more productive in the awake time. That sort of thing.
- mlyle 2y ago
  Yah -- note that I didn't posit that things would be the same at the margin (120 minutes more conscious time without other downsides yields only 16% of "useful" time and assumes the rest goes to minimally useful relaxation and recreation). > There is no free lunch. Selective pressure and evolution are pretty good at optimizing... but not perfect. What they optimized for, also, is not quality of life in the modern world. It's likely there are a whole lot of free lunches available, or at least big wins with relatively low opportunity costs. It's certainly not great to discard potential improvements because of an assumption that what we have must be optimum.
  - naming_the_user 2y ago
    Sorry, I edited my post a bit so what you've quoted isn't there any more but I agree fully with what you're saying. I guess what would be cool is being able to play with the sliders. People already do this in other ways, for example people at the extreme end of bodybuilding or strongman are almost certainlhy explicitly shortening their lifespans for a shorter term benefit, calorie restriction looks like it lets you go the other way, etc. Maybe you could even fiddle and have 16 hours of sleep and overclock your brain for the other 8 being super-intelligent, lol.
  - jvanderbot 2y ago
    It might make sense to just drop the term optimization when discussing natural selection. It's not like "Natural Selection" was given an ecological niche and optimized from scratch the being for that niche. That mental model implies there's not much to be done and any changes would produce a less useful product. A more apt term would be "Refactored" or even "Patched". It's more like a giant ugly legacy software system was added to, and the result was just enough to keep going in the new system. I like that analogy better because it implies: 1. There is room for optimization, and 2. Any minor change is likely to break things far away due to the continuous re-patching and legacy cruft. Both of which seem correct.
    - iterateoften 2y ago
      > "Natural Selection" was given an ecological niche and optimized from scratch the being for that niche I think you are conflating natural selection the process with organisms that are a result of natural selection. Natural selection isn’t a process that is intentionally made by anyone, but a way we describe a simplified model slew of complex processes. Also conflated is what you are optimizing for. The only thing natural selection optimizes for is survival. That’s it. Nothing else matters expect which individuals survive long enough to pass their genes to the next generation. As a result niches develop and as each generation survives compared to their peers their survival strategies are optimized. Optimization perfectly describes what is happening to the survivability and reproduction of certain genes. You appear to be working backwards. That there was a niche and evolution somehow crafted an organism to fit that niche. That is misleading. Genes replicate, and in a certain context some genes survived and replicated better than in some other context. So genes evolved in that new context creating a niche.

Kiro 2y ago

> I woke up early today and had a few hours of darkness, I can feel my mood and brainpower improving as the sun rises I can't relate at all. Where I live the days are consumed by darkness in the winter and I see no effect on my mood or brainpower.

mewpmewp2 2y ago
You don't? I'm also in an area with mostly darkness in the winter and I have to say I do feel depressed, and I wish it was always summer. I think it's the worst aspects about my location. Otherwise I think it's great. From the name I assume you are from Finland, which I am not, but supposedly Finnish people are the happiest in the World - which I'm not sure if it's actually true. The joke is that every Finnish person after seeing the study wonders why they are the only unhappy one.

trallnag 2y ago

If sunlight improves your mood, add more lights to your place? Around my desk where I spend a lot of my time I have lights with a combined power of 150 watts and it's noticeable

XorNot 2y ago

Productivity is irrelevant: when you have young children, any given amount of time where you can be awake and functional is incredibly valuable - particularly if it works outside the hours your children sleep. Like I'll settle for "tired but no accruing sleep debt".

naming_the_user 2y ago
Are we assuming then that you're not treating the children? Because otherwise they just sleep less as well and now you're back to square one. I suppose you can full dystopia it, go the other way, make them need 12-16 hours a sleep a day whilst you only need 4 ;)
- XorNot 2y ago
  I mean I also don't give my son caffeine (because he's 2) so this seems like a reasonable assumption. Teenagers stay up too late anyway so I'd say this sort of thing would be a good way to hopefully reduce the effects of sleep deprivation.
  - rekado 2y ago
    Teenagers have to get up too early. Teenagers experience a shift in their circadian rhythm and also require more sleep than before puberty. School schedules do not account for this shift.
- TeMPOraL 2y ago
  Not treating the children will only level the playing field. My two daughters, 5yo and 3.5yo, both sleep from "as late as they can get away with" to "about an hour earlier than parents would like to wake up". Also, whoever came up with the idea of nap hour in kindergartens has a special circle of hell reserved for them.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]