4 ms·

If you try something for a decade and it doesn't work, maybe a change in style is necessary! An article exceeding 20 pages doesn't sound like the best persuasio

If you try something for a decade and it doesn't work, maybe a change in style is necessary! An article exceeding 20 pages doesn't sound like the best persuasion strategy.

photonthug 2y ago
I’m not a front end engineer and I read most of this, at first for sheer morbid curiosity about the drama, then I kept reading because it looked like deep knowledge and detailed exposition of a complex subject, then I kept reading because I was wondering who listens to a guy like this and why? In my experience, regardless of your skill at communication, coworkers or bosses that are actually interested in getting to deep knowledge or detailed analysis about anything are extremely rare. If you need to communicate a subtle point or detailed argument, then you’ve already lost. This is because for any technical decision the opposite argument from FUD is easier to make and easier to digest, regardless of whether the FUD advice is to stay/defect on the tech stack or the design decision or whatever. IOW the winning strategy is basically to always go 2nd after what TFA calls the “thoughtful engineer” burns out the audience by being rational and thorough. Even more bluntly.. most people are just showing up to work and have no interest (and much less passion) for craftsmanship. I wish it was different, since I believe in architecture / design. But, there’s a good chance no one cares about your detailed analysis at all and you’re much better off producing more shallow demos/diagrams/decks regardless of whether your audience is engineers or management.
- ahuth 2y ago
  This is a very underrated comment. My only quibble is that it’s certainly possible to choose React (or any popular solution to a problem) without considering other options too much, and still care about craft.
- emmanueloga_ 2y ago
  > coworkers or bosses that are actually interested in getting to deep knowledge or detailed analysis about anything are extremely rare I agree! In general, people are resistant to change, period. Some are particularly wary of facts and logic (see: politics). Successfully getting points across, even when one "is right," often requires a lot of strategizing and non-technical effort. Whole books have been written on this subject [1]. For those attempting to navigate the challenge, just remember that it's all too easy to burn out in the office while "chasing your ideals.". Doing this while keeping your sanity is an art :-). -- 1: https://pragprog.com/titles/trevan/driving-technical-change/ https://pragprog.com/titles/trevan/driving-technical-change/
- yawaramin 2y ago
  Good point, but you should take a look at a post where he does exactly this: https://infrequently.org/2024/08/object-lesson/ https://infrequently.org/2024/08/object-lesson/
pier25 2y ago
I doubt it's a matter of style. There's a lot of tribalism and irrational opinions around React.
- andybak 2y ago
  I strongly dislike React on pragmatic and philosophical grounds. I don't feel particularly irrational.
  - pier25 2y ago
    I was arguing the opposite. That there's a lot of irrationality in devs using React.

If you try something for a decade and it doesn't work, maybe a change in style is necessary! An article exceeding 20 pages doesn't sound like the best persuasion strategy.

photonthug 2y ago

I’m not a front end engineer and I read most of this, at first for sheer morbid curiosity about the drama, then I kept reading because it looked like deep knowledge and detailed exposition of a complex subject, then I kept reading because I was wondering who listens to a guy like this and why? In my experience, regardless of your skill at communication, coworkers or bosses that are actually interested in getting to deep knowledge or detailed analysis about anything are extremely rare. If you need to communicate a subtle point or detailed argument, then you’ve already lost. This is because for any technical decision the opposite argument from FUD is easier to make and easier to digest, regardless of whether the FUD advice is to stay/defect on the tech stack or the design decision or whatever. IOW the winning strategy is basically to always go 2nd after what TFA calls the “thoughtful engineer” burns out the audience by being rational and thorough. Even more bluntly.. most people are just showing up to work and have no interest (and much less passion) for craftsmanship. I wish it was different, since I believe in architecture / design. But, there’s a good chance no one cares about your detailed analysis at all and you’re much better off producing more shallow demos/diagrams/decks regardless of whether your audience is engineers or management.

ahuth 2y ago
This is a very underrated comment. My only quibble is that it’s certainly possible to choose React (or any popular solution to a problem) without considering other options too much, and still care about craft.
emmanueloga_ 2y ago
> coworkers or bosses that are actually interested in getting to deep knowledge or detailed analysis about anything are extremely rare I agree! In general, people are resistant to change, period. Some are particularly wary of facts and logic (see: politics). Successfully getting points across, even when one "is right," often requires a lot of strategizing and non-technical effort. Whole books have been written on this subject [1]. For those attempting to navigate the challenge, just remember that it's all too easy to burn out in the office while "chasing your ideals.". Doing this while keeping your sanity is an art :-). -- 1: https://pragprog.com/titles/trevan/driving-technical-change/ https://pragprog.com/titles/trevan/driving-technical-change/
yawaramin 2y ago
Good point, but you should take a look at a post where he does exactly this: https://infrequently.org/2024/08/object-lesson/ https://infrequently.org/2024/08/object-lesson/

pier25 2y ago

I doubt it's a matter of style. There's a lot of tribalism and irrational opinions around React.

andybak 2y ago
I strongly dislike React on pragmatic and philosophical grounds. I don't feel particularly irrational.
- pier25 2y ago
  I was arguing the opposite. That there's a lot of irrationality in devs using React.