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not the op here. I don't, generally, disagree with you--there is no way every single one of them deeply identified as a Nazi--especially when coercion is invol

not the op here. I don't, generally, disagree with you--there is no way every single one of them deeply identified as a Nazi--especially when coercion is involved. However, as for the comparison with American slavery...many people stood up, said no to slavery, and lost lives because of it--they didn't just stick their head in the sand nor did they continue those ways since "everyone" else did, otherwise we would still have slavery. Maybe because this did not seem to happen in WWII Germany, or at least on a large enough scale of division within German loyalties, (as happened with American slavery), it bolsters the view of/comes across as WWII Germans full buy-in

lolinder 2y ago
> they didn't just stick their head in the sand nor did they continue those ways since "everyone" else did, otherwise we would still have slavery. Slavery didn't end in the US until the end of the Civil War in 1865—246 years after the first enslaved people arrived in Jamestown. It's grossly unfair to take the eventual success of abolitionism to try to argue that there must have been less German opposition to Nazism than American opposition to slavery. For the vast majority of American history, nearly everyone did "just stick their head in the sand" and "continue those ways". At best they fought to avoid expanding slavery, trying to keep it contained to the South. For people who "stood up, said no to slavery, and lost lives because of it" you might be thinking about the likes of John Brown, but he died in 1859. If Nazism took as long to abolish as American slavery we'd have expected a John Brown to come along around the year 2173. Instead, we have dozens of well-known stories of opposition starting from before Hitler even took power.
- 1659447091 2y ago
  > It's grossly unfair to take the eventual success of abolitionism to try to argue that there must have been less German opposition to Nazism than American opposition to slavery. I was not taking that view, nor do I believe there was little opposition to Nazism in Germany. I simply do not believe such a large population can fully agree on one direction--in such unison, for any "cause" in such short time, whatever that may be. I was pointing out that the lack of visual division (as taught in modern times) could give it the appearance that it was unified. As the other poster pointed out, the differing time frames (length of time) is likely the cause of the visual discrepancies. I agree. I was in no way saying that there was no division, only that the appearance between the two, as taught now, could lead the OP to have the view that they were unified; unlike the general view of American slavery and the overt division that eventually appeared. As for people that stood up to slavery, I was actually thinking of my ancestors I have been researching. One were first settlers and granted land in and around Jamestown, then the Carolinas. As the other poster mentions "most white resistance to slavery - in supporting the underground railroad was through groups like the Quakers", turns out the first American born generation (of my direct line) broke away from their slave holding prominent British family, were hard-core Quakers (involved in and charged in Cary's Rebellion) moved to the free states and became known in their area for fighting for abolition; including an incident/scuffle with pro-slavers looking for runaways in which he and companion were robbed, beaten and held/kidnapped for a time before being released. So while it's a single example, the fact that there are only a few "known" examples with more well known people doesn't mean that it was limited--only that stories are hidden, unlike well-known stories of opposition to Nazi's (which I fully believe) and I am sure there are many more that never have surfaced, or only to a limited degree. I'm not saying that opposition to slavery was instantly wide spread either, I get that. For one more obscure story, another line that married into a wealthy British colonial family of merchants, also had the second American generation forgo slaves and stayed in Va.--(I get that is shitty still, and after all the research, I understand better than before slavery and how it was simply the way of things at the time, but hindsight can be ugly)--they lived out their lives, working their own land until the Civil War where those generations (of age) fought for the Union. TL;DR: The main issue I believe is the visual appearance in both early education and popular media, which would cause some to believe they were full in Nazis.
bryanrasmussen 2y ago
Actually in the article it was noted a bit, but not focused on overmuch, but most white resistance to slavery - in supporting the underground railroad was through groups like the Quakers - that is to say specific sub societies, and black people, which given that if you were black and living in a non-slave owning territory you could still be kidnapped and brought into slaver - as in 12 years a slave - may have had some self-interest as well as empathy for their less fortunate brothers and sisters involved in it. Aside from that the German situation was very short time frame - it may have some effect on resistance.
- 1659447091 2y ago
  > Aside from that the German situation was very short time frame - it may have some effect on resistance. I completely agree. I posted a lengthly reply to a sibling poster on this and provided context into my view on it and relates your statement "most white resistance to slavery - in supporting the underground railroad was through groups like the Quakers", if interested and includes a story relating to my ancestors and an incident I found involving them and pro-slavers looking for runaways. Basically, that's exactly why my lens of it is coloured the way it is. A line of ancestors were dedicated Quakers and fought not only against the Crown (interference in their beliefs and Queen Anns demanding they take a renewed oath of loyalty), but also abolition. Another one fought for the Union, and the second generation would also forgo slaves--the original British merchant family of this line had kept them;(second gen of my/this line did not, the first gen might have not as well, the slaves were inherited but not sure what happened to them at that point---which is simply awful to type, but I get the reality of it/the time)

lolinder 2y ago

> they didn't just stick their head in the sand nor did they continue those ways since "everyone" else did, otherwise we would still have slavery. Slavery didn't end in the US until the end of the Civil War in 1865—246 years after the first enslaved people arrived in Jamestown. It's grossly unfair to take the eventual success of abolitionism to try to argue that there must have been less German opposition to Nazism than American opposition to slavery. For the vast majority of American history, nearly everyone did "just stick their head in the sand" and "continue those ways". At best they fought to avoid expanding slavery, trying to keep it contained to the South. For people who "stood up, said no to slavery, and lost lives because of it" you might be thinking about the likes of John Brown, but he died in 1859. If Nazism took as long to abolish as American slavery we'd have expected a John Brown to come along around the year 2173. Instead, we have dozens of well-known stories of opposition starting from before Hitler even took power.

1659447091 2y ago
> It's grossly unfair to take the eventual success of abolitionism to try to argue that there must have been less German opposition to Nazism than American opposition to slavery. I was not taking that view, nor do I believe there was little opposition to Nazism in Germany. I simply do not believe such a large population can fully agree on one direction--in such unison, for any "cause" in such short time, whatever that may be. I was pointing out that the lack of visual division (as taught in modern times) could give it the appearance that it was unified. As the other poster pointed out, the differing time frames (length of time) is likely the cause of the visual discrepancies. I agree. I was in no way saying that there was no division, only that the appearance between the two, as taught now, could lead the OP to have the view that they were unified; unlike the general view of American slavery and the overt division that eventually appeared. As for people that stood up to slavery, I was actually thinking of my ancestors I have been researching. One were first settlers and granted land in and around Jamestown, then the Carolinas. As the other poster mentions "most white resistance to slavery - in supporting the underground railroad was through groups like the Quakers", turns out the first American born generation (of my direct line) broke away from their slave holding prominent British family, were hard-core Quakers (involved in and charged in Cary's Rebellion) moved to the free states and became known in their area for fighting for abolition; including an incident/scuffle with pro-slavers looking for runaways in which he and companion were robbed, beaten and held/kidnapped for a time before being released. So while it's a single example, the fact that there are only a few "known" examples with more well known people doesn't mean that it was limited--only that stories are hidden, unlike well-known stories of opposition to Nazi's (which I fully believe) and I am sure there are many more that never have surfaced, or only to a limited degree. I'm not saying that opposition to slavery was instantly wide spread either, I get that. For one more obscure story, another line that married into a wealthy British colonial family of merchants, also had the second American generation forgo slaves and stayed in Va.--(I get that is shitty still, and after all the research, I understand better than before slavery and how it was simply the way of things at the time, but hindsight can be ugly)--they lived out their lives, working their own land until the Civil War where those generations (of age) fought for the Union. TL;DR: The main issue I believe is the visual appearance in both early education and popular media, which would cause some to believe they were full in Nazis.

bryanrasmussen 2y ago

Actually in the article it was noted a bit, but not focused on overmuch, but most white resistance to slavery - in supporting the underground railroad was through groups like the Quakers - that is to say specific sub societies, and black people, which given that if you were black and living in a non-slave owning territory you could still be kidnapped and brought into slaver - as in 12 years a slave - may have had some self-interest as well as empathy for their less fortunate brothers and sisters involved in it. Aside from that the German situation was very short time frame - it may have some effect on resistance.

1659447091 2y ago
> Aside from that the German situation was very short time frame - it may have some effect on resistance. I completely agree. I posted a lengthly reply to a sibling poster on this and provided context into my view on it and relates your statement "most white resistance to slavery - in supporting the underground railroad was through groups like the Quakers", if interested and includes a story relating to my ancestors and an incident I found involving them and pro-slavers looking for runaways. Basically, that's exactly why my lens of it is coloured the way it is. A line of ancestors were dedicated Quakers and fought not only against the Crown (interference in their beliefs and Queen Anns demanding they take a renewed oath of loyalty), but also abolition. Another one fought for the Union, and the second generation would also forgo slaves--the original British merchant family of this line had kept them;(second gen of my/this line did not, the first gen might have not as well, the slaves were inherited but not sure what happened to them at that point---which is simply awful to type, but I get the reality of it/the time)