5 ms·

> A car realistically just sits around doing nothing 80% of the time A bit besides the point, but isn't it wild how inherently wasteful personal cars are? Ever

> A car realistically just sits around doing nothing 80% of the time A bit besides the point, but isn't it wild how inherently wasteful personal cars are? Every time the thought crosses my mind to get another one, if I don't stop at the cost, I stop at the fact that I'll have this giant chunk of metal sitting idle on the street or somewhere else nearly all the time. It'd be useful in an extreme minority of cases (for me), but I/we pay for it all the time by allocating quite a lot of space and money to them. The tires, the insurance, taxes, fuel, charging stations, driveways, parking garages, natural resources, air quality, ambient noise, senseless deaths, it's crazy. Granted, some aren't a result of idle existence, but c'mon. Renting an arbitrary car periodically ends up being the most tolerable option. A small temporary expense when it's really needed or desired, and it's enough to remind me of the good and bad bits.

jfim 2y ago
Depends where you live, and how much of a hassle it is to get a rental car. If you live somewhere with decent public transportation and good car sharing infrastructure (eg. walk to a nearby car share and unlock the doors with an app or a card vs Uber to Hertz and wait for an hour to sign paperwork), then yes that's a viable option. For many places in the US and Canada, that's not viable unfortunately.
- brailsafe 2y ago
  True, and that really does constrain where I'm willing to live these days. There's some threshold probably where I could deal with owning one in exchange for some hypothetical benefit of living in the boonies or something, but for the foreseeable future I get too much personal value out of living on the west coast. It's not always suitable mind you. Extremely short random day trips are the trickiest, which might tip me at some point if I'm making decent money again, but it's so hard to get to a point where I could rationalize that as an occasional leisure luxury instead of a burden. I wouldn't move to another city though for any reason that would require me to own a car just for getting around. If they ain't investing in viable transit, they won't get my income tax.
BurningFrog 2y ago
Selfdriving taxis solves much of the 98% unused car problem.
- ndsipa_pomu 2y ago
  They also create problems in terms of extra journeys as a private car will go from A to B, whereas a taxi goes from C to A to B to C. It's quite amusing as people try to come up with more efficient use of cars and typically end up reinventing public transport (e.g. buses, trains etc).
  - _huayra_ 2y ago
    Bro just platoon the autonomous taxis into a convoy, give them separated lanes, and get rid of the rubber wheels and add steel wheels and steel lane guides for maximum efficiency. It's obviously new and revolutionary!
  - DennisP 2y ago
    Those extra journeys can be minimized with decent routing software. Even if it's as simple as ending up at B, then going directly to the nearest customer waiting for a ride. And fwiw, if Tesla gets their robotaxi stuff working, their 22-passenger "robovan" is basically a bus anyway, just without a driver.
    - anticensor 2y ago
      Their demo event showed a 14-passenger vehicle, but anyway.
  - BurningFrog 2y ago
    I doubt that's a big factor. The big thing they do is to make a huge number of parking spots obsolete! There will also be far fewer cars doing the same transportation work.
jaredhallen 2y ago
Sounds like maybe you don't need a car. That's good for you, and I truly mean that. But that doesn't mean it's the case for everyone. It's a big, diverse world out there.
- throwaway290 2y ago
  Um the fact that some people in some (less developed?) places need cars is not an argument against cars being wasteful...
- rglullis 2y ago
  Unless your idea of "diverse world" is confined to (suburban) North America, the need to own a car is the exception, not the rule.
  - KineticLensman 2y ago
    Rural southern England here. Public transport is non existant where I live. You need a car if you want a life. I lost my driving license for medical reasons and have spent two years without driving. I am really conscious of what a car means in terms of having a social life, working, etc. If I was younger, I would have had to relocate
    - rglullis 2y ago
      Tell that to the Amish. Car dependency is something that we've learned, not the natural state of things.
      - bbradley406 2y ago
        The Amish ride in horse-drawn buggies and hire private car drivers for longer trips. I'd rather not go back to the days of horses as the primary means of transportation though.
      - KineticLensman 2y ago
        > Car dependency is something that we've learned, not the natural state of things. Yes, it is not the natural state of things but for many people it is the actual state of things. I absolutely hate the fact that I live in a car focussed society but that is where I do actually live. And because of my investment in my house and garden I don't want to move > Tell that to the Amish. I had to count to 10 before responding here. Perhaps you didn't notice the bit where I said I have spent two years without a car. It is something I have thought about a LOT. And have been impacted by. I don't have a convenient Amish community nearby to help me put up barns in my backyard, or even to lend me a horse to ride to the local B&Q when I need to buy a new tool of some sort. I deeply wish there was better public transport - I am not a petrolhead - but there isn't and won't be for the foreseeable future.
ddingus 2y ago
That depends doesn't it? I keep my cars for a long time. 200k miles is the usual, and that has held true buying used a little ways north of 100k miles already on the board. If we designed for very long car life, the waste equation would look different. Toyota does, and there are a small number of people planning on half a million miles. Recently there is evidence Toyota is either struggling on this metric. Quality problems or deliberate design intent change?
- _huayra_ 2y ago
  > Recently there is evidence Toyota is either struggling on this metric. Quality problems or deliberate design intent change? I'm hoping they fix this. There's almost no other reason to buy a Toyota other than this reliability reputation. It seems like the way to go now is a naturally-aspirated Subaru, which I ended up after all the Toyota dealers near me treated me like a chump (which apparently is common; Toyota doesn't have as much "say" over their dealers as other similar companies afaik). Subies have basically been iterations on the same engine for a decade (the FB series), and the brand cannot afford to do much goofy R&D. They're also still dealing with the head gasket reputation despite that being >10 years old at this point (almost 20).
  - ddingus 2y ago
    Yeah, a friend has a Suburu and we just had this same chat. My most recent buy was a golden era Toyota and the difference is notable when I look at current models.
  - bigfatkitten 2y ago
    Subaru CVTs are not famous for their longevity.
    - _huayra_ 2y ago
      I mean don't expect to beat on them, under-maintain them, etc, like one can a lot of older Toyota gear, but used within parameters, they have lasted my family (almost all of whom drive CVT Subies) well over 1m miles at this point without any big failure. Key thing is to change the CVT fluid at least at the 60k interval (some countries say to do it every 30k, but that seems excessive). The "it's a lifetime fluid" thing is a total lie; it's the "lifetime of the CVT", so when it grenades itself, that's its lifetime ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
dsign 2y ago
I've been of a similar opinion for many years. I have public transport and my office commute is about two hours and half in each direction, but I only need to go to the office once per week, so it's somehow acceptable. But I'm getting old. I've decided I want to use my remaining years of any strength to do more hiking, kayaking and camping, and for that I need a car every weekend. Rentals would be slightly more expensive than owning a second hand one. But I do wish car ownership were cheaper and more painless.

jfim 2y ago

Depends where you live, and how much of a hassle it is to get a rental car. If you live somewhere with decent public transportation and good car sharing infrastructure (eg. walk to a nearby car share and unlock the doors with an app or a card vs Uber to Hertz and wait for an hour to sign paperwork), then yes that's a viable option. For many places in the US and Canada, that's not viable unfortunately.

brailsafe 2y ago
True, and that really does constrain where I'm willing to live these days. There's some threshold probably where I could deal with owning one in exchange for some hypothetical benefit of living in the boonies or something, but for the foreseeable future I get too much personal value out of living on the west coast. It's not always suitable mind you. Extremely short random day trips are the trickiest, which might tip me at some point if I'm making decent money again, but it's so hard to get to a point where I could rationalize that as an occasional leisure luxury instead of a burden. I wouldn't move to another city though for any reason that would require me to own a car just for getting around. If they ain't investing in viable transit, they won't get my income tax.

BurningFrog 2y ago

Selfdriving taxis solves much of the 98% unused car problem.

ndsipa_pomu 2y ago
They also create problems in terms of extra journeys as a private car will go from A to B, whereas a taxi goes from C to A to B to C. It's quite amusing as people try to come up with more efficient use of cars and typically end up reinventing public transport (e.g. buses, trains etc).
- _huayra_ 2y ago
  Bro just platoon the autonomous taxis into a convoy, give them separated lanes, and get rid of the rubber wheels and add steel wheels and steel lane guides for maximum efficiency. It's obviously new and revolutionary!
- DennisP 2y ago
  Those extra journeys can be minimized with decent routing software. Even if it's as simple as ending up at B, then going directly to the nearest customer waiting for a ride. And fwiw, if Tesla gets their robotaxi stuff working, their 22-passenger "robovan" is basically a bus anyway, just without a driver.
  - anticensor 2y ago
    Their demo event showed a 14-passenger vehicle, but anyway.
- BurningFrog 2y ago
  I doubt that's a big factor. The big thing they do is to make a huge number of parking spots obsolete! There will also be far fewer cars doing the same transportation work.

jaredhallen 2y ago

Sounds like maybe you don't need a car. That's good for you, and I truly mean that. But that doesn't mean it's the case for everyone. It's a big, diverse world out there.

throwaway290 2y ago
Um the fact that some people in some (less developed?) places need cars is not an argument against cars being wasteful...
rglullis 2y ago
Unless your idea of "diverse world" is confined to (suburban) North America, the need to own a car is the exception, not the rule.
- KineticLensman 2y ago
  Rural southern England here. Public transport is non existant where I live. You need a car if you want a life. I lost my driving license for medical reasons and have spent two years without driving. I am really conscious of what a car means in terms of having a social life, working, etc. If I was younger, I would have had to relocate
  - rglullis 2y ago
    Tell that to the Amish. Car dependency is something that we've learned, not the natural state of things.
    - bbradley406 2y ago
      The Amish ride in horse-drawn buggies and hire private car drivers for longer trips. I'd rather not go back to the days of horses as the primary means of transportation though.
    - KineticLensman 2y ago
      > Car dependency is something that we've learned, not the natural state of things. Yes, it is not the natural state of things but for many people it is the actual state of things. I absolutely hate the fact that I live in a car focussed society but that is where I do actually live. And because of my investment in my house and garden I don't want to move > Tell that to the Amish. I had to count to 10 before responding here. Perhaps you didn't notice the bit where I said I have spent two years without a car. It is something I have thought about a LOT. And have been impacted by. I don't have a convenient Amish community nearby to help me put up barns in my backyard, or even to lend me a horse to ride to the local B&Q when I need to buy a new tool of some sort. I deeply wish there was better public transport - I am not a petrolhead - but there isn't and won't be for the foreseeable future.

ddingus 2y ago

That depends doesn't it? I keep my cars for a long time. 200k miles is the usual, and that has held true buying used a little ways north of 100k miles already on the board. If we designed for very long car life, the waste equation would look different. Toyota does, and there are a small number of people planning on half a million miles. Recently there is evidence Toyota is either struggling on this metric. Quality problems or deliberate design intent change?

_huayra_ 2y ago
> Recently there is evidence Toyota is either struggling on this metric. Quality problems or deliberate design intent change? I'm hoping they fix this. There's almost no other reason to buy a Toyota other than this reliability reputation. It seems like the way to go now is a naturally-aspirated Subaru, which I ended up after all the Toyota dealers near me treated me like a chump (which apparently is common; Toyota doesn't have as much "say" over their dealers as other similar companies afaik). Subies have basically been iterations on the same engine for a decade (the FB series), and the brand cannot afford to do much goofy R&D. They're also still dealing with the head gasket reputation despite that being >10 years old at this point (almost 20).
- ddingus 2y ago
  Yeah, a friend has a Suburu and we just had this same chat. My most recent buy was a golden era Toyota and the difference is notable when I look at current models.
- bigfatkitten 2y ago
  Subaru CVTs are not famous for their longevity.
  - _huayra_ 2y ago
    I mean don't expect to beat on them, under-maintain them, etc, like one can a lot of older Toyota gear, but used within parameters, they have lasted my family (almost all of whom drive CVT Subies) well over 1m miles at this point without any big failure. Key thing is to change the CVT fluid at least at the 60k interval (some countries say to do it every 30k, but that seems excessive). The "it's a lifetime fluid" thing is a total lie; it's the "lifetime of the CVT", so when it grenades itself, that's its lifetime ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

dsign 2y ago

I've been of a similar opinion for many years. I have public transport and my office commute is about two hours and half in each direction, but I only need to go to the office once per week, so it's somehow acceptable. But I'm getting old. I've decided I want to use my remaining years of any strength to do more hiking, kayaking and camping, and for that I need a car every weekend. Rentals would be slightly more expensive than owning a second hand one. But I do wish car ownership were cheaper and more painless.