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I believe ultimately we will head towards a situation where anyone can request it at any time for any reason. Gating with health conditions is just to ease the

I believe ultimately we will head towards a situation where anyone can request it at any time for any reason. Gating with health conditions is just to ease the transition. That said, the great problem in countries with tax funded social and health services is the government have a distinct interest in persuading certain people to jump, and this is a serious moral hazard as some of the Canadian experience has demonstrated. Today though the UK has the opposite problem, which is an enormous private residential “care” system keeping huge numbers of unwilling near vegetables wired up until they eventually die, transferring as much of the family money to the “carers” as possible. They have an awful lot to lose from this too, so I expect the fight to be a lot nastier from here on.

grecy 2y ago
> as some of the Canadian experience has demonstrated I live in Canada, and I keep hearing this kind of stuff brought up by Americans. What, exactly, is "the Canadian experience"? It would be best if your sources are not American media outlets intended for American audiences they are looking to manipulate.
- bondarchuk 2y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthanasia_in_Canada https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthanasia_in_Canada
  - grecy 2y ago
    My Mum died slowly from lung cancer over almost three years. It spread to basically every organ in her body, she was taking so much chemo they eventually said they had to stop or the chemo would kill her before the cancer would. The intense pain, humiliation and knowing it was a certain death sentence hung over her every single minute of every single day. My family would have given anything to have been allowed access to assisted suicide by the end. And I guarantee you would too. Anyone that says otherwise simply hasn't lived it.
    - enaaem 2y ago
      Yeah dying sucks. Too many people have this delusion that their death will happen peacefully in their sleep. There is no guarantee whatsoever. Good chance it will be awful. If needed, I want to have the option for myself to get over with it swiftly.
      - vidarh 2y ago
        I saw both my grandmothers waste away waste away with Alzheimer's, and one of the worst parts was seeing the effect on my grandfather's. One of them spent a decade mostly sitting in a chair next to his wife who no longer spoke or recognized anyone...
    - svieira 2y ago
      I am very sorry for your loss. > And I guarantee you would too Please don't presume. Having just buried my mother last year after caring for her as the cancer literally ate her bones away ... no, I did not and I still would not choose suicide over waiting for the end.
  - belval 2y ago
    I feel like that's hardly a solid rebuttal. The "Handling of specific cases" has 10 cases, a few of which I would struggle to tie to assisted dying. During the year with the most event (2022), 5 events occured for over 13 000 patients that chose assisted dying. That's 1 for every 2600 person and these events are basically just people suggesting MAiD improperly.
- fidotron 2y ago
  I am British and Canadian. Some of the famous incidents: https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/veterans-maid-rcmp-investigation-1.6663885 https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/veterans-maid-rcmp-investig... https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/paralympian-trying-to-get-wheelchair-ramp-says-veterans-affairs-employee-offered-her-assisted-dying-1.6179325 https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/paralympian-trying-to-get-wh... The Canadian “care” industry is also a dumpster fire: https://globalnews.ca/news/4870784/gilles-duceppes-mother-found-dead/ https://globalnews.ca/news/4870784/gilles-duceppes-mother-fo...
  - vizzier 2y ago
    > That prompted MacAulay to order an internal investigation, which has now uncovered a total of four cases where veterans were allegedly offered MAID — all apparently by the same caseworker. Rogue employees suggesting bad treatment doesn't seem too much a cause for concern so long as they're caught before it goes further. After all, people like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Shipman https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Shipman exist prior to this ruling.
- mardifoufs 2y ago
  By Americans? Why do some Canadians try to sweep under the rug actual debates by dismissing them as being "american arguments"? Surely as a Canadian you have seen that there has been a constant debate about the limits and excesses of MAID? Even the CBC has a few yearly articles about someone getting euthanized because they wanted to die because they were too poor and similar. I mean, we live in a country where the ruling party has 30% of the vote, and 35% when they had a majority in parliament. So why pretend that disagreements with Canadian policy is somehow just coming from Americans not understanding our wonderful country? It's super weird and it's oddly common on places like here and Reddit.
  - stackghost 2y ago
    >Why do some Canadians try to sweep under the rug actual debates by dismissing them as being "american arguments"? Because we live here, it's not as big a deal as right-wing ideologues would like you to believe, and it's usually American religious conservatives (or Canadian wannabe-Americans) doing the hand-wringing and the clutching at pearls. >Surely as a Canadian you have seen that there has been a constant debate about the limits and excesses of MAID? Yes, there has been spirited debate about a major shift in public health policy. Are you suggesting this is somehow bad?
    - bondarchuk 2y ago
      It's easy for you to say it's not a big deal when you're not the one getting killed by the government.
      - stackghost 2y ago
        Your choice of words implies it's the government murdering it's citizens. These people have requested it from a medical doctor.
        bondarchuk 2y ago
        I said killed, not murdered. It is killing plain and simple, and if we cannot face up to that fact as a society then we are surely not ready to make the decision.
jonwinstanley 2y ago
Fight? Who is fighting in this instance?
- fidotron 2y ago
  It is not yet law, and will almost certainly be amended. There were real doubts on it clearing this stage in the process, but now the various stakeholders, such as those benefitting from the status quo, will be pushing on the relevant committees much harder.
  - jonwinstanley 2y ago
    Ahh ok. Yes, agreed.
FpUser 2y ago
>"That said, the great problem in countries with tax funded social and health services is the government have a distinct interest in persuading certain people to jump" Well, government may have a "distinct interest..." for reasons that are far away from being health related. I think that any hint of encouragement must be severely punished.
Aurornis 2y ago
> I believe ultimately we will head towards a situation where anyone can request it at any time for any reason. Not a chance. This will always be gated by medical evaluation for suitability. Suicidal ideation occurs transiently in many conditions or life circumstances. Giving these people tools to follow through with their impulses "at any time for any reason" would be disastrous.
- throawayonthe 2y ago
  [dead]
- ChocolateGod 2y ago
  Canada is letting people request suicide for non terminal and non physical disabilities (e.g. autism) Whilst I am genuinely supportive of the legislation, I have a disability myself and am cautious about what it might lead to.
  - kranke155 2y ago
    I am 100% against this and I don’t think it should be allowed. You’re young fit and healthy and you want to die? Find a way to do it. It sucks, and it’s not that I disagree that some people might be better off - it’s that the system that would allow for this would be politically untenable and likely abused. But it’s also because not allowing people to commit suicide easily can help making the symptoms go away naturally as circumstances change.
    - tanewishly 2y ago
      > You’re young fit and healthy and you want to die? That is a logical impossibility. Mental health is a thing; your mental health is not okay if you're physically fit and want to die. My stance is that we should extend human beings the courtesy we extend to pets and road-almost-but-not-quite-kills: ending suffering when the situation calls for it.
  - stackghost 2y ago
    >Canada is letting people request suicide for non terminal and non physical disabilities (e.g. autism) That's a distortion of the truth. The case that you're referring to in Calgary is newsworthy because the father of the patient is arguing the woman isn't mentally competent to make the decision, because she is autistic. The judge ruled that being autistic doesn't make one mentally incompetent for the purposes of requesting MAID. She's requesting MAID for some other unspecified symptoms that the father argues are undiagnosed psychological issues. That is not the same as requesting MAID because you have autism.
vundercind 2y ago
> Today though the UK has the opposite problem, which is an enormous private residential “care” system keeping huge numbers of unwilling near vegetables wired up until they eventually die, transferring as much of the family money to the “carers” as possible. Same as the US. Nobody below the Fussellian upper-middle class in the US has savings—just accounts that temporarily hold money for the hospitals and elder care & hospice facilities.
shepherdjerred 2y ago
It’s a potentially lucrative business: https://youtu.be/EbmQxZkSswI?si=G5-eaqTBhKYzns65 https://youtu.be/EbmQxZkSswI?si=G5-eaqTBhKYzns65
tim333 2y ago
Bit of a nitpick but we don't have "an enormous private residential “care” system keeping huge numbers of unwilling near vegetables wired up until they eventually die" We have enormous private residential “care” system where they sit around in chairs. The "near vegetables wired up" are in NHS hospitals. I don't think most of the care home folk are going to go for assisted dying. Also it's not as profitable as you might think - real estate is expensive and it's not that easy to get staff to wipe up 24/7.
- fidotron 2y ago
  Nope. If you have the means you will be ejected from the hospital into the private system until you do not.

grecy 2y ago

> as some of the Canadian experience has demonstrated I live in Canada, and I keep hearing this kind of stuff brought up by Americans. What, exactly, is "the Canadian experience"? It would be best if your sources are not American media outlets intended for American audiences they are looking to manipulate.

bondarchuk 2y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthanasia_in_Canada https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthanasia_in_Canada
- grecy 2y ago
  My Mum died slowly from lung cancer over almost three years. It spread to basically every organ in her body, she was taking so much chemo they eventually said they had to stop or the chemo would kill her before the cancer would. The intense pain, humiliation and knowing it was a certain death sentence hung over her every single minute of every single day. My family would have given anything to have been allowed access to assisted suicide by the end. And I guarantee you would too. Anyone that says otherwise simply hasn't lived it.
  - enaaem 2y ago
    Yeah dying sucks. Too many people have this delusion that their death will happen peacefully in their sleep. There is no guarantee whatsoever. Good chance it will be awful. If needed, I want to have the option for myself to get over with it swiftly.
    - vidarh 2y ago
      I saw both my grandmothers waste away waste away with Alzheimer's, and one of the worst parts was seeing the effect on my grandfather's. One of them spent a decade mostly sitting in a chair next to his wife who no longer spoke or recognized anyone...
  - svieira 2y ago
    I am very sorry for your loss. > And I guarantee you would too Please don't presume. Having just buried my mother last year after caring for her as the cancer literally ate her bones away ... no, I did not and I still would not choose suicide over waiting for the end.
- belval 2y ago
  I feel like that's hardly a solid rebuttal. The "Handling of specific cases" has 10 cases, a few of which I would struggle to tie to assisted dying. During the year with the most event (2022), 5 events occured for over 13 000 patients that chose assisted dying. That's 1 for every 2600 person and these events are basically just people suggesting MAiD improperly.
fidotron 2y ago
I am British and Canadian. Some of the famous incidents: https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/veterans-maid-rcmp-investigation-1.6663885 https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/veterans-maid-rcmp-investig... https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/paralympian-trying-to-get-wheelchair-ramp-says-veterans-affairs-employee-offered-her-assisted-dying-1.6179325 https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/paralympian-trying-to-get-wh... The Canadian “care” industry is also a dumpster fire: https://globalnews.ca/news/4870784/gilles-duceppes-mother-found-dead/ https://globalnews.ca/news/4870784/gilles-duceppes-mother-fo...
- vizzier 2y ago
  > That prompted MacAulay to order an internal investigation, which has now uncovered a total of four cases where veterans were allegedly offered MAID — all apparently by the same caseworker. Rogue employees suggesting bad treatment doesn't seem too much a cause for concern so long as they're caught before it goes further. After all, people like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Shipman https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Shipman exist prior to this ruling.
mardifoufs 2y ago
By Americans? Why do some Canadians try to sweep under the rug actual debates by dismissing them as being "american arguments"? Surely as a Canadian you have seen that there has been a constant debate about the limits and excesses of MAID? Even the CBC has a few yearly articles about someone getting euthanized because they wanted to die because they were too poor and similar. I mean, we live in a country where the ruling party has 30% of the vote, and 35% when they had a majority in parliament. So why pretend that disagreements with Canadian policy is somehow just coming from Americans not understanding our wonderful country? It's super weird and it's oddly common on places like here and Reddit.
- stackghost 2y ago
  >Why do some Canadians try to sweep under the rug actual debates by dismissing them as being "american arguments"? Because we live here, it's not as big a deal as right-wing ideologues would like you to believe, and it's usually American religious conservatives (or Canadian wannabe-Americans) doing the hand-wringing and the clutching at pearls. >Surely as a Canadian you have seen that there has been a constant debate about the limits and excesses of MAID? Yes, there has been spirited debate about a major shift in public health policy. Are you suggesting this is somehow bad?
  - bondarchuk 2y ago
    It's easy for you to say it's not a big deal when you're not the one getting killed by the government.
    - stackghost 2y ago
      Your choice of words implies it's the government murdering it's citizens. These people have requested it from a medical doctor.
      - bondarchuk 2y ago
        I said killed, not murdered. It is killing plain and simple, and if we cannot face up to that fact as a society then we are surely not ready to make the decision.

jonwinstanley 2y ago

Fight? Who is fighting in this instance?

fidotron 2y ago
It is not yet law, and will almost certainly be amended. There were real doubts on it clearing this stage in the process, but now the various stakeholders, such as those benefitting from the status quo, will be pushing on the relevant committees much harder.
- jonwinstanley 2y ago
  Ahh ok. Yes, agreed.

FpUser 2y ago

>"That said, the great problem in countries with tax funded social and health services is the government have a distinct interest in persuading certain people to jump" Well, government may have a "distinct interest..." for reasons that are far away from being health related. I think that any hint of encouragement must be severely punished.

Aurornis 2y ago

> I believe ultimately we will head towards a situation where anyone can request it at any time for any reason. Not a chance. This will always be gated by medical evaluation for suitability. Suicidal ideation occurs transiently in many conditions or life circumstances. Giving these people tools to follow through with their impulses "at any time for any reason" would be disastrous.

throawayonthe 2y ago
[dead]
ChocolateGod 2y ago
Canada is letting people request suicide for non terminal and non physical disabilities (e.g. autism) Whilst I am genuinely supportive of the legislation, I have a disability myself and am cautious about what it might lead to.
- kranke155 2y ago
  I am 100% against this and I don’t think it should be allowed. You’re young fit and healthy and you want to die? Find a way to do it. It sucks, and it’s not that I disagree that some people might be better off - it’s that the system that would allow for this would be politically untenable and likely abused. But it’s also because not allowing people to commit suicide easily can help making the symptoms go away naturally as circumstances change.
  - tanewishly 2y ago
    > You’re young fit and healthy and you want to die? That is a logical impossibility. Mental health is a thing; your mental health is not okay if you're physically fit and want to die. My stance is that we should extend human beings the courtesy we extend to pets and road-almost-but-not-quite-kills: ending suffering when the situation calls for it.
- stackghost 2y ago
  >Canada is letting people request suicide for non terminal and non physical disabilities (e.g. autism) That's a distortion of the truth. The case that you're referring to in Calgary is newsworthy because the father of the patient is arguing the woman isn't mentally competent to make the decision, because she is autistic. The judge ruled that being autistic doesn't make one mentally incompetent for the purposes of requesting MAID. She's requesting MAID for some other unspecified symptoms that the father argues are undiagnosed psychological issues. That is not the same as requesting MAID because you have autism.

vundercind 2y ago

> Today though the UK has the opposite problem, which is an enormous private residential “care” system keeping huge numbers of unwilling near vegetables wired up until they eventually die, transferring as much of the family money to the “carers” as possible. Same as the US. Nobody below the Fussellian upper-middle class in the US has savings—just accounts that temporarily hold money for the hospitals and elder care & hospice facilities.

shepherdjerred 2y ago

It’s a potentially lucrative business: https://youtu.be/EbmQxZkSswI?si=G5-eaqTBhKYzns65 https://youtu.be/EbmQxZkSswI?si=G5-eaqTBhKYzns65

tim333 2y ago

Bit of a nitpick but we don't have "an enormous private residential “care” system keeping huge numbers of unwilling near vegetables wired up until they eventually die" We have enormous private residential “care” system where they sit around in chairs. The "near vegetables wired up" are in NHS hospitals. I don't think most of the care home folk are going to go for assisted dying. Also it's not as profitable as you might think - real estate is expensive and it's not that easy to get staff to wipe up 24/7.

fidotron 2y ago
Nope. If you have the means you will be ejected from the hospital into the private system until you do not.