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> so catching up to a global leader with lots of nuclear despite phasing out their own nuclear. No catching up happened, because France also improved in the me

by pyrale 2y ago

> so catching up to a global leader with lots of nuclear despite phasing out their own nuclear. No catching up happened, because France also improved in the meantime, despite building no new plant in the 2007-2022 interval. And that's the issue with this measurement: it measures plenty of parasitic information. For instance, GDP growth between the 90's and now explains a large part of what you're highlighting. Here's another chart from your site showing carbon intensity [1] which shows the improvement in carbon per energy generated is only a small part of the improvement shown in your graph. And here's a chart [2] showing how GDP growth is the dominating factor for Germany's evolution in your graph. [1]: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/production-consumption-carbon-intensity-energy?facet=metric&country=DEU~FRA https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/production-consumption-ca... [2]: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/kaya-identity-co2?country=~DEU https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/kaya-identity-co2?country...

natmaka 2y ago
> France also improved in the meantime, despite building no new plant in the 2007-2022 interval Thanks to renewables: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/electricity-fossil-renewables-nuclear-line?time=2007..latest&country=~FRA https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/electricity-fossil-renewa...
- pyrale 2y ago
  Renewables didn't move the needle since french electricity was already clean. Your graph shows that fossil didn't move over the time period. The difference has been cleaner energy use (e.g. better car motors) and cleaner production on non-electric energy.
  - natmaka 2y ago
    Renewables did compensate nuclear's underproduction: without them France would have burnt more fossil fuels. Moreover ~60% of France's final energy is obtained by burning fossil fuels => France must electrify (replace fossil fuel by electricity) => produce more gridpower => deploy new gridpower-producing equipment and such heavy industry thingies cannot be built overnight. Upon an economic viewpoint electrifying is facilitated by the sheer availability of low-priced electricity.
    - pyrale 2y ago
      It feels like you've got your answer and are looking for a way to find the fit problem. > Renewables did compensate nuclear's underproduction The underproduction episode in 2022 was mostly handled thanks to imports and consumer sobriety. > Moreover ~60% of France's final energy is obtained by burning fossil fuels Yeah, that's my point. France would be better served by electrifying its non-electric energy usages rather than trying to replace one clean production by another. > => deploy new gridpower-producing equipment and such heavy industry thingies cannot be built overnight. France has a healthy margin before needing to rush production, with electricity usage going down for two decades, and a significant share of its power being exported currently.
      - natmaka 2y ago
        >> Renewables did compensate nuclear's underproduction > The underproduction episode in 2022 was mostly handled thanks to imports and consumer sobriety. Source? > France would be better served by electrifying its non-electric energy usages rather than trying to replace one clean production by another. I disagree: Renewables-produced electricity reduces fossil the amount -fuel-produced electricity: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/electricity-fossil-renewables-nuclear-line?time=2020..latest&country=~FRA https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/electricity-fossil-renewa... A large part of resources needed by electrification isn't needed to build electricity-producing equipment. Producing more electricity enables us to contain its price, boosting electrification. Starting right now to build in order to replace 40-years old nuclear plants (on average) seems adequate to me. New nuclear (Flamanville-3 EPR) isn't adequate (6x times overcostly, at least 12 years late). > France has a healthy margin before needing to rush production, Electrification has to ramp up, therefore if everything goes as planned it will soon be over. Waiting is dangerous. > with electricity usage going down for two decades Production nearly-flat from 2004 until COVID: https://ourworldindata.org/energy-production-consumption https://ourworldindata.org/energy-production-consumption > a significant share of its power being exported currently. The challenge (getting rid of fossil fuels and the necessary powergrid, see ENTSO-e) is at continental-scale.
        pyrale 2y ago

by pyrale 2y ago

natmaka 2y ago

> France also improved in the meantime, despite building no new plant in the 2007-2022 interval Thanks to renewables: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/electricity-fossil-renewables-nuclear-line?time=2007..latest&country=~FRA https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/electricity-fossil-renewa...

pyrale 2y ago
Renewables didn't move the needle since french electricity was already clean. Your graph shows that fossil didn't move over the time period. The difference has been cleaner energy use (e.g. better car motors) and cleaner production on non-electric energy.
- natmaka 2y ago
  Renewables did compensate nuclear's underproduction: without them France would have burnt more fossil fuels. Moreover ~60% of France's final energy is obtained by burning fossil fuels => France must electrify (replace fossil fuel by electricity) => produce more gridpower => deploy new gridpower-producing equipment and such heavy industry thingies cannot be built overnight. Upon an economic viewpoint electrifying is facilitated by the sheer availability of low-priced electricity.
  - pyrale 2y ago
    It feels like you've got your answer and are looking for a way to find the fit problem. > Renewables did compensate nuclear's underproduction The underproduction episode in 2022 was mostly handled thanks to imports and consumer sobriety. > Moreover ~60% of France's final energy is obtained by burning fossil fuels Yeah, that's my point. France would be better served by electrifying its non-electric energy usages rather than trying to replace one clean production by another. > => deploy new gridpower-producing equipment and such heavy industry thingies cannot be built overnight. France has a healthy margin before needing to rush production, with electricity usage going down for two decades, and a significant share of its power being exported currently.
    - natmaka 2y ago
      >> Renewables did compensate nuclear's underproduction > The underproduction episode in 2022 was mostly handled thanks to imports and consumer sobriety. Source? > France would be better served by electrifying its non-electric energy usages rather than trying to replace one clean production by another. I disagree: Renewables-produced electricity reduces fossil the amount -fuel-produced electricity: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/electricity-fossil-renewables-nuclear-line?time=2020..latest&country=~FRA https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/electricity-fossil-renewa... A large part of resources needed by electrification isn't needed to build electricity-producing equipment. Producing more electricity enables us to contain its price, boosting electrification. Starting right now to build in order to replace 40-years old nuclear plants (on average) seems adequate to me. New nuclear (Flamanville-3 EPR) isn't adequate (6x times overcostly, at least 12 years late). > France has a healthy margin before needing to rush production, Electrification has to ramp up, therefore if everything goes as planned it will soon be over. Waiting is dangerous. > with electricity usage going down for two decades Production nearly-flat from 2004 until COVID: https://ourworldindata.org/energy-production-consumption https://ourworldindata.org/energy-production-consumption > a significant share of its power being exported currently. The challenge (getting rid of fossil fuels and the necessary powergrid, see ENTSO-e) is at continental-scale.
      - pyrale 2y ago