4 ms·

Is that a problem though? The other day I got a whole lecture on HN, complete with math, proving that keeping the water running entire time while showering isn'

Is that a problem though? The other day I got a whole lecture on HN, complete with math, proving that keeping the water running entire time while showering isn't meaningfully wasteful... I still can't believe it on an emotional level, but the math checks out...

MrDrMcCoy 2y ago
Link?
distances 2y ago
Was that about water, or about energy spent on heating the water? My gut feeling is that keeping the water running would roughly double the amount of water, so double the energy.
- eru 2y ago
  Yes, unless you take cold showers.
bayindirh 2y ago
A nominal water aerator limits water around 5L-6L/min levels. For every minute I don't use the water, I spend approximately two full kettles of water. With every 5L of water I can - Cook 4 servings (~400 grams) of pasta. - Brew 5L of tea/coffee - Water all the plants at home two times. - Possibly wash most of my handwash-only dishes in one go. - etc. So it's not not meaningfully wasteful. However, I can't turn off the water in the winter, because I feel very cold otherwise. However, this doesn't mean I don't waste any water or happy about what I'm doing. My only (half) relief is this water is somehow processed and reused by city for other needs, at least one more time.
- eru 2y ago
  Well, even if the city doesn't re-use the water, it doesn't just disappear.
  - bayindirh 2y ago
    Yeah, but getting rid of chemicals and returning it to a non-poisonous state for the nature is a big plus. You can't dump everything to the soil and say "that's your problem now, nature. Cope!".
    - eru 2y ago
      Yes, I mean when you are 'wasting water' you are mostly wasting the effort it takes to clean the water. Not the water itself. As opposed to eg 'wasting petrol', where the petrol really is gone afterwards. At least it has been chemically transformed.
    - shepherdjerred 2y ago
      > You can't dump everything to the soil and say "that's your problem now, nature. Cope!". Nature couldn't care less. Nature works on much larger timescales than humans. It's the humans that are impacted. Just like climate change, plastic, and all other environmental issues -- humans are paying (or will pay) the price, not nature.
      - eru 2y ago
        It depends on what you mean by 'nature'. On a large enough scale, 'nature' doesn't care whether earth is hit by a moon sized asteroid, either.
        shepherdjerred 2y ago
        I think we’re in agreement :)
    - toast0 2y ago
      Assuming you use the same amount of soap and what nots, and get the same amount of dirt and debris off your body, the more water you use during a shower, the easier it is to process the water at your sewage treatment plant, if your waste water is treated. If your waste water isn't treated, and is discharged to water ways as-is, the more water you use, the more dilute your pollution. If you've got a septic system, I dunno? Probably doesn't help, but if your system is well sized, no big deal? Some of your outflow probably recharges aquifers, so it's kind of circular (although a lot of the outflow evaporates, so less directly circular there)
- pantalaimon 2y ago
  The water is cheap and plentiful, what's wasteful is heating the water and throwing that away.
  - bagels 2y ago
    If you live in Minnesota, sure. Not as true in Australia.
  - bayindirh 2y ago
    The maps, surveys and projections say otherwise, but of course you're free to believe what you believe.
    - TeMPOraL 2y ago
      That's the thing, dollars are usually a better indicator, unless something somewhere is burning money to prevent prices from reflecting real scarcity.
      - bayindirh 2y ago
        We're drinking one of the cheapest drinking water in the world, but this doesn't change the reality of sinkholes appearing where we deplete the water in our country. So, the prices might not be rising that quickly for now, but sinkholes are giving us the warning. Prices don't always point correctly, esp. when there are other economic and socioeconomic factors at play.
- eek2121 2y ago
  Water is by far the most abundant resource on the planet (70+% of earth is water), and we have methods to remove salt and contaminants from almost all of it. We can even turn urine into drinking water. I wouldn’t worry about wasting it. We’ll die from something else long before water becomes an issue.
  - bayindirh 2y ago
    The amount, abundance and share of water among everything on this planet doesn't mean anything if none of it is in that dam nearby your city and you can't utilize it. Similarly, that spring water has no use if you can't extract it and get out from the hands of capitalistic companies (cough Nestlé & CocaCola cough) which monopolize said spring and suck it dry without giving it to you. Don't forget, Nestlé's CEO told that "water is something they package and sell, and that water is not a human right". So don't expect it to get that abundant resource and use it the way you wish. So, water is precious. You need to be mindful about it.
  - bagels 2y ago
    Water already is an issue in many places. It's expensive and in limited supply because we can't drink salt water and storage, treatment and delivery cost money.
    - crooked-v 2y ago
      For the US in particular, water issues come down overwhelmingly to unfettered agricultural use, often with crops like alfalfa that are both mostly water by weight and are shipped out of the country to other places. Domestic use is only a fraction of the total.
      - throwaway2037 2y ago
        I am pretty sure that this is true in all developed countries. When you see farming without irrigation, you will see more poverty. It is very important for human development. That said, it could sometimes be done more efficiently, but more costly.
eru 2y ago
What's meaningfully wasteful depends entirely where and when you are, and how plentiful water is locally at the moment.
- bayindirh 2y ago
  I don't think so. Just because you're not in a water-stressed place doesn't make you eligible to keep taps open 24/7. This mentality is what brought us to today.
  - eru 2y ago
    Who is 'us' and what do you mean by 'today'? And what do you mean by 'eligible'? In most places I've been to, you just pay your water bill, and then you can leave your taps running. It's about as productive as buying bread just to toss it in the trash, of course.
    - bayindirh 2y ago
      us: the humanity in general, today: the state of world water stress level [0], [1], eligible: the correctness of the thing you are doing regardless of the legality of the thing you're doing. IOW, "I pay the bill, now get off my lawn" is something you can do. But should you really do it, just because you can do it? [0]: https://www.wri.org/data/water-stress-country https://www.wri.org/data/water-stress-country (This is decade old, we're worse now) [1]: https://riskfilter.org/water/explore/map https://riskfilter.org/water/explore/map If you think you can do whatever you want regardless of the things you're causing, then we're on a completely different page, and continuing this little chat has no point. We can't converge and agree on a point.
      - eru 2y ago
        How would conserving water in, say, Germany help with water stress in Australia?
        deleted 2y ago

MrDrMcCoy 2y ago

Link?

distances 2y ago

Was that about water, or about energy spent on heating the water? My gut feeling is that keeping the water running would roughly double the amount of water, so double the energy.

eru 2y ago
Yes, unless you take cold showers.

bayindirh 2y ago

A nominal water aerator limits water around 5L-6L/min levels. For every minute I don't use the water, I spend approximately two full kettles of water. With every 5L of water I can - Cook 4 servings (~400 grams) of pasta. - Brew 5L of tea/coffee - Water all the plants at home two times. - Possibly wash most of my handwash-only dishes in one go. - etc. So it's not not meaningfully wasteful. However, I can't turn off the water in the winter, because I feel very cold otherwise. However, this doesn't mean I don't waste any water or happy about what I'm doing. My only (half) relief is this water is somehow processed and reused by city for other needs, at least one more time.

eru 2y ago
Well, even if the city doesn't re-use the water, it doesn't just disappear.
- bayindirh 2y ago
  Yeah, but getting rid of chemicals and returning it to a non-poisonous state for the nature is a big plus. You can't dump everything to the soil and say "that's your problem now, nature. Cope!".
  - eru 2y ago
    Yes, I mean when you are 'wasting water' you are mostly wasting the effort it takes to clean the water. Not the water itself. As opposed to eg 'wasting petrol', where the petrol really is gone afterwards. At least it has been chemically transformed.
  - shepherdjerred 2y ago
    > You can't dump everything to the soil and say "that's your problem now, nature. Cope!". Nature couldn't care less. Nature works on much larger timescales than humans. It's the humans that are impacted. Just like climate change, plastic, and all other environmental issues -- humans are paying (or will pay) the price, not nature.
    - eru 2y ago
      It depends on what you mean by 'nature'. On a large enough scale, 'nature' doesn't care whether earth is hit by a moon sized asteroid, either.
      - shepherdjerred 2y ago
        I think we’re in agreement :)
  - toast0 2y ago
    Assuming you use the same amount of soap and what nots, and get the same amount of dirt and debris off your body, the more water you use during a shower, the easier it is to process the water at your sewage treatment plant, if your waste water is treated. If your waste water isn't treated, and is discharged to water ways as-is, the more water you use, the more dilute your pollution. If you've got a septic system, I dunno? Probably doesn't help, but if your system is well sized, no big deal? Some of your outflow probably recharges aquifers, so it's kind of circular (although a lot of the outflow evaporates, so less directly circular there)
pantalaimon 2y ago
The water is cheap and plentiful, what's wasteful is heating the water and throwing that away.
- bagels 2y ago
  If you live in Minnesota, sure. Not as true in Australia.
- bayindirh 2y ago
  The maps, surveys and projections say otherwise, but of course you're free to believe what you believe.
  - TeMPOraL 2y ago
    That's the thing, dollars are usually a better indicator, unless something somewhere is burning money to prevent prices from reflecting real scarcity.
    - bayindirh 2y ago
      We're drinking one of the cheapest drinking water in the world, but this doesn't change the reality of sinkholes appearing where we deplete the water in our country. So, the prices might not be rising that quickly for now, but sinkholes are giving us the warning. Prices don't always point correctly, esp. when there are other economic and socioeconomic factors at play.
eek2121 2y ago
Water is by far the most abundant resource on the planet (70+% of earth is water), and we have methods to remove salt and contaminants from almost all of it. We can even turn urine into drinking water. I wouldn’t worry about wasting it. We’ll die from something else long before water becomes an issue.
- bayindirh 2y ago
  The amount, abundance and share of water among everything on this planet doesn't mean anything if none of it is in that dam nearby your city and you can't utilize it. Similarly, that spring water has no use if you can't extract it and get out from the hands of capitalistic companies (cough Nestlé & CocaCola cough) which monopolize said spring and suck it dry without giving it to you. Don't forget, Nestlé's CEO told that "water is something they package and sell, and that water is not a human right". So don't expect it to get that abundant resource and use it the way you wish. So, water is precious. You need to be mindful about it.
- bagels 2y ago
  Water already is an issue in many places. It's expensive and in limited supply because we can't drink salt water and storage, treatment and delivery cost money.
  - crooked-v 2y ago
    For the US in particular, water issues come down overwhelmingly to unfettered agricultural use, often with crops like alfalfa that are both mostly water by weight and are shipped out of the country to other places. Domestic use is only a fraction of the total.
    - throwaway2037 2y ago
      I am pretty sure that this is true in all developed countries. When you see farming without irrigation, you will see more poverty. It is very important for human development. That said, it could sometimes be done more efficiently, but more costly.

eru 2y ago

What's meaningfully wasteful depends entirely where and when you are, and how plentiful water is locally at the moment.

bayindirh 2y ago
I don't think so. Just because you're not in a water-stressed place doesn't make you eligible to keep taps open 24/7. This mentality is what brought us to today.
- eru 2y ago
  Who is 'us' and what do you mean by 'today'? And what do you mean by 'eligible'? In most places I've been to, you just pay your water bill, and then you can leave your taps running. It's about as productive as buying bread just to toss it in the trash, of course.
  - bayindirh 2y ago
    us: the humanity in general, today: the state of world water stress level [0], [1], eligible: the correctness of the thing you are doing regardless of the legality of the thing you're doing. IOW, "I pay the bill, now get off my lawn" is something you can do. But should you really do it, just because you can do it? [0]: https://www.wri.org/data/water-stress-country https://www.wri.org/data/water-stress-country (This is decade old, we're worse now) [1]: https://riskfilter.org/water/explore/map https://riskfilter.org/water/explore/map If you think you can do whatever you want regardless of the things you're causing, then we're on a completely different page, and continuing this little chat has no point. We can't converge and agree on a point.
    - eru 2y ago
      How would conserving water in, say, Germany help with water stress in Australia?
      - deleted 2y ago