7 ms·

And uses orders of magnitude more water

TeMPOraL 2y ago
Is that a problem though? The other day I got a whole lecture on HN, complete with math, proving that keeping the water running entire time while showering isn't meaningfully wasteful... I still can't believe it on an emotional level, but the math checks out...
- MrDrMcCoy 2y ago
  Link?
- distances 2y ago
  Was that about water, or about energy spent on heating the water? My gut feeling is that keeping the water running would roughly double the amount of water, so double the energy.
  - eru 2y ago
    Yes, unless you take cold showers.
- bayindirh 2y ago
  A nominal water aerator limits water around 5L-6L/min levels. For every minute I don't use the water, I spend approximately two full kettles of water. With every 5L of water I can - Cook 4 servings (~400 grams) of pasta. - Brew 5L of tea/coffee - Water all the plants at home two times. - Possibly wash most of my handwash-only dishes in one go. - etc. So it's not not meaningfully wasteful. However, I can't turn off the water in the winter, because I feel very cold otherwise. However, this doesn't mean I don't waste any water or happy about what I'm doing. My only (half) relief is this water is somehow processed and reused by city for other needs, at least one more time.
  - eru 2y ago
    Well, even if the city doesn't re-use the water, it doesn't just disappear.
    - bayindirh 2y ago
      Yeah, but getting rid of chemicals and returning it to a non-poisonous state for the nature is a big plus. You can't dump everything to the soil and say "that's your problem now, nature. Cope!".
      - eru 2y ago
        Yes, I mean when you are 'wasting water' you are mostly wasting the effort it takes to clean the water. Not the water itself. As opposed to eg 'wasting petrol', where the petrol really is gone afterwards. At least it has been chemically transformed.
      - shepherdjerred 2y ago
        > You can't dump everything to the soil and say "that's your problem now, nature. Cope!". Nature couldn't care less. Nature works on much larger timescales than humans. It's the humans that are impacted. Just like climate change, plastic, and all other environmental issues -- humans are paying (or will pay) the price, not nature.
        eru 2y ago
        It depends on what you mean by 'nature'. On a large enough scale, 'nature' doesn't care whether earth is hit by a moon sized asteroid, either.
        shepherdjerred 2y ago
        I think we’re in agreement :)
      - toast0 2y ago
        Assuming you use the same amount of soap and what nots, and get the same amount of dirt and debris off your body, the more water you use during a shower, the easier it is to process the water at your sewage treatment plant, if your waste water is treated. If your waste water isn't treated, and is discharged to water ways as-is, the more water you use, the more dilute your pollution. If you've got a septic system, I dunno? Probably doesn't help, but if your system is well sized, no big deal? Some of your outflow probably recharges aquifers, so it's kind of circular (although a lot of the outflow evaporates, so less directly circular there)
- eru 2y ago
  What's meaningfully wasteful depends entirely where and when you are, and how plentiful water is locally at the moment.
  - bayindirh 2y ago
    I don't think so. Just because you're not in a water-stressed place doesn't make you eligible to keep taps open 24/7. This mentality is what brought us to today.
    - eru 2y ago
      Who is 'us' and what do you mean by 'today'? And what do you mean by 'eligible'? In most places I've been to, you just pay your water bill, and then you can leave your taps running. It's about as productive as buying bread just to toss it in the trash, of course.
      - bayindirh 2y ago
        us: the humanity in general, today: the state of world water stress level [0], [1], eligible: the correctness of the thing you are doing regardless of the legality of the thing you're doing. IOW, "I pay the bill, now get off my lawn" is something you can do. But should you really do it, just because you can do it? [0]: https://www.wri.org/data/water-stress-country https://www.wri.org/data/water-stress-country (This is decade old, we're worse now) [1]: https://riskfilter.org/water/explore/map https://riskfilter.org/water/explore/map If you think you can do whatever you want regardless of the things you're causing, then we're on a completely different page, and continuing this little chat has no point. We can't converge and agree on a point.
        eru 2y ago
        How would conserving water in, say, Germany help with water stress in Australia?
        deleted 2y ago
tobyhinloopen 2y ago
It doesn’t use any water. It just makes the water dirtier.
- maronato 2y ago
  And it doesn’t use any electricity either. It just moves electrons around.

Is that a problem though? The other day I got a whole lecture on HN, complete with math, proving that keeping the water running entire time while showering isn't meaningfully wasteful... I still can't believe it on an emotional level, but the math checks out...

MrDrMcCoy 2y ago
Link?
distances 2y ago
Was that about water, or about energy spent on heating the water? My gut feeling is that keeping the water running would roughly double the amount of water, so double the energy.
- eru 2y ago
  Yes, unless you take cold showers.
bayindirh 2y ago
A nominal water aerator limits water around 5L-6L/min levels. For every minute I don't use the water, I spend approximately two full kettles of water. With every 5L of water I can - Cook 4 servings (~400 grams) of pasta. - Brew 5L of tea/coffee - Water all the plants at home two times. - Possibly wash most of my handwash-only dishes in one go. - etc. So it's not not meaningfully wasteful. However, I can't turn off the water in the winter, because I feel very cold otherwise. However, this doesn't mean I don't waste any water or happy about what I'm doing. My only (half) relief is this water is somehow processed and reused by city for other needs, at least one more time.
- eru 2y ago
  Well, even if the city doesn't re-use the water, it doesn't just disappear.
  - bayindirh 2y ago
    Yeah, but getting rid of chemicals and returning it to a non-poisonous state for the nature is a big plus. You can't dump everything to the soil and say "that's your problem now, nature. Cope!".
    - eru 2y ago
      Yes, I mean when you are 'wasting water' you are mostly wasting the effort it takes to clean the water. Not the water itself. As opposed to eg 'wasting petrol', where the petrol really is gone afterwards. At least it has been chemically transformed.
    - shepherdjerred 2y ago
      > You can't dump everything to the soil and say "that's your problem now, nature. Cope!". Nature couldn't care less. Nature works on much larger timescales than humans. It's the humans that are impacted. Just like climate change, plastic, and all other environmental issues -- humans are paying (or will pay) the price, not nature.
      - eru 2y ago
        It depends on what you mean by 'nature'. On a large enough scale, 'nature' doesn't care whether earth is hit by a moon sized asteroid, either.
        shepherdjerred 2y ago
        I think we’re in agreement :)
    - toast0 2y ago
      Assuming you use the same amount of soap and what nots, and get the same amount of dirt and debris off your body, the more water you use during a shower, the easier it is to process the water at your sewage treatment plant, if your waste water is treated. If your waste water isn't treated, and is discharged to water ways as-is, the more water you use, the more dilute your pollution. If you've got a septic system, I dunno? Probably doesn't help, but if your system is well sized, no big deal? Some of your outflow probably recharges aquifers, so it's kind of circular (although a lot of the outflow evaporates, so less directly circular there)
eru 2y ago
What's meaningfully wasteful depends entirely where and when you are, and how plentiful water is locally at the moment.
- bayindirh 2y ago
  I don't think so. Just because you're not in a water-stressed place doesn't make you eligible to keep taps open 24/7. This mentality is what brought us to today.
  - eru 2y ago
    Who is 'us' and what do you mean by 'today'? And what do you mean by 'eligible'? In most places I've been to, you just pay your water bill, and then you can leave your taps running. It's about as productive as buying bread just to toss it in the trash, of course.
    - bayindirh 2y ago
      us: the humanity in general, today: the state of world water stress level [0], [1], eligible: the correctness of the thing you are doing regardless of the legality of the thing you're doing. IOW, "I pay the bill, now get off my lawn" is something you can do. But should you really do it, just because you can do it? [0]: https://www.wri.org/data/water-stress-country https://www.wri.org/data/water-stress-country (This is decade old, we're worse now) [1]: https://riskfilter.org/water/explore/map https://riskfilter.org/water/explore/map If you think you can do whatever you want regardless of the things you're causing, then we're on a completely different page, and continuing this little chat has no point. We can't converge and agree on a point.
      - eru 2y ago
        How would conserving water in, say, Germany help with water stress in Australia?
        deleted 2y ago

tobyhinloopen 2y ago

It doesn’t use any water. It just makes the water dirtier.

maronato 2y ago
And it doesn’t use any electricity either. It just moves electrons around.