5 ms·

Tornado Cash Sanctions Found Illegal, in Legal Win for Crypto

OutOfHere 2y ago
https://archive.ph/pYIbv https://archive.ph/pYIbv
perihelions 2y ago
https://archive.is/pYIbv https://archive.is/pYIbv https://www.ca5.uscourts.gov/opinions/pub/23/23-50669-CV0.pdf https://www.ca5.uscourts.gov/opinions/pub/23/23-50669-CV0.pd... (opinion, pdf)
TheAmazingRace 2y ago
I think the regulators will simply go after any exchanges that deal with Tornado Cash, rather than Tornado Cash itself. This just causes a new kind of cat and mouse game to happen while the money laundering industry greases their palms. To be honest, with the incoming Trump administration’s cryptocurrency-friendly views and the likelihood they will turn a blind eye to outright scamming, I think it will only be a matter of time before something huge really cleans the majority of folks out in the biggest rugpull of all time. I can’t possibly know when that will happen if it does. But this speedrunning the wild-cat bank situation from ages ago is probably going to be interesting to watch unfold.
- pixxel 2y ago
  [flagged]
- dsco 2y ago
  This already happened with SBF who operated under a democrat administration. The more interesting conversation is how could the UX and potentially AI based investment assistants prevent people from making financially unsound decisions.
  - Gigachad 2y ago
    The “AI based investment assistants” will be designed specifically to steer people in to whatever scam the creator is selling.
throwaway290 2y ago
Ease of washing crypto is a big win for Russia and NK. Without these tumblers crypto changes hands, is traced to Russia and accomplices are on the hook for jail time. So you really don't want to do it. With these washers it's totally safe, do it and take your cut. It's a direct way around sanctions and it fuels violence and oppresion.
- roenxi 2y ago
  1) That is a direct argument against anything that is a global good. If we do something that is good for everyone, bad people will benefit from it because they are people too. Bad people benefiting doesn't, in isolation, tell us anything about whether something is a good idea. 2) Money being hard to trace is a bigger problem for authoritarian regimes than it is a help. Places like Russia, China, etc, rely fairly heavily on financial controls to stop people sending money to places with the most reliable legal system. If you live in a world where the tax offices can't track money, authoritarians will struggle more than anyone else to raise funds.
  - mplewis 2y ago
    Who said crypto was a global good?
    - dmichulke 2y ago
      3 trillion US dollar (that's the market cap) or rather their former owners.
  - maeil 2y ago
    2) depends on the country, and imo is largely an outdated view. NK for example has undeniably seen enormous benefits from cryptos, much more than any potential drawbacks. China has such extensive societal level tracking and tracing in place aleady that even crypto tumblers are unlikely to have a significant impact on the amount of money the government fails to track.
  - throwaway290 2y ago
ChrisArchitect 2y ago
[dupe] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42257881 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42257881
immibis 2y ago
This is after all the developers went to prison, though, right?
- AlexCoventry 2y ago
  One developer went to prison for facilitating money laundering in Holland, IIRC. It wasn't just for the smart contract, though. IIRC, they had him dead to rights marketing the contract as a money-laundering tool to various bad actors.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
averysmallbird 2y ago
It’s the Fifth Circuit. Coinbase steered the case there given its record of judicial activism. I wouldn’t take the outcome for granted.
- piker 2y ago
  You think SCOTUS or en banc tribunal is going to overturn it? If not, then it’s in fact granted.
akimbostrawman 2y ago
Good but reminder that btc tumbler aren't actually sufficient and using an actual private currency like monero XMR is the way to go.
- OutOfHere 2y ago
  What can go wrong with relying on a BTC tumbler alone?
  - akimbostrawman 2y ago
    Tumbling BTC to make it anonymous is like using a square wheel. It kind of works with enough effort until it doesn't. Don't use tools for things they weren't build for when working and proven alternatives exist.

https://archive.ph/pYIbv https://archive.ph/pYIbv

https://archive.is/pYIbv https://archive.is/pYIbv https://www.ca5.uscourts.gov/opinions/pub/23/23-50669-CV0.pdf https://www.ca5.uscourts.gov/opinions/pub/23/23-50669-CV0.pd... (opinion, pdf)

TheAmazingRace 2y ago

I think the regulators will simply go after any exchanges that deal with Tornado Cash, rather than Tornado Cash itself. This just causes a new kind of cat and mouse game to happen while the money laundering industry greases their palms. To be honest, with the incoming Trump administration’s cryptocurrency-friendly views and the likelihood they will turn a blind eye to outright scamming, I think it will only be a matter of time before something huge really cleans the majority of folks out in the biggest rugpull of all time. I can’t possibly know when that will happen if it does. But this speedrunning the wild-cat bank situation from ages ago is probably going to be interesting to watch unfold.

pixxel 2y ago
[flagged]
dsco 2y ago
This already happened with SBF who operated under a democrat administration. The more interesting conversation is how could the UX and potentially AI based investment assistants prevent people from making financially unsound decisions.
- Gigachad 2y ago
  The “AI based investment assistants” will be designed specifically to steer people in to whatever scam the creator is selling.

throwaway290 2y ago

Ease of washing crypto is a big win for Russia and NK. Without these tumblers crypto changes hands, is traced to Russia and accomplices are on the hook for jail time. So you really don't want to do it. With these washers it's totally safe, do it and take your cut. It's a direct way around sanctions and it fuels violence and oppresion.

roenxi 2y ago
1) That is a direct argument against anything that is a global good. If we do something that is good for everyone, bad people will benefit from it because they are people too. Bad people benefiting doesn't, in isolation, tell us anything about whether something is a good idea. 2) Money being hard to trace is a bigger problem for authoritarian regimes than it is a help. Places like Russia, China, etc, rely fairly heavily on financial controls to stop people sending money to places with the most reliable legal system. If you live in a world where the tax offices can't track money, authoritarians will struggle more than anyone else to raise funds.
- mplewis 2y ago
  Who said crypto was a global good?
  - dmichulke 2y ago
    3 trillion US dollar (that's the market cap) or rather their former owners.
- maeil 2y ago
  2) depends on the country, and imo is largely an outdated view. NK for example has undeniably seen enormous benefits from cryptos, much more than any potential drawbacks. China has such extensive societal level tracking and tracing in place aleady that even crypto tumblers are unlikely to have a significant impact on the amount of money the government fails to track.
- throwaway290 2y ago

ChrisArchitect 2y ago

[dupe] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42257881 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42257881

immibis 2y ago

This is after all the developers went to prison, though, right?

AlexCoventry 2y ago
One developer went to prison for facilitating money laundering in Holland, IIRC. It wasn't just for the smart contract, though. IIRC, they had him dead to rights marketing the contract as a money-laundering tool to various bad actors.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

averysmallbird 2y ago

It’s the Fifth Circuit. Coinbase steered the case there given its record of judicial activism. I wouldn’t take the outcome for granted.

piker 2y ago
You think SCOTUS or en banc tribunal is going to overturn it? If not, then it’s in fact granted.

akimbostrawman 2y ago

Good but reminder that btc tumbler aren't actually sufficient and using an actual private currency like monero XMR is the way to go.

OutOfHere 2y ago
What can go wrong with relying on a BTC tumbler alone?
- akimbostrawman 2y ago
  Tumbling BTC to make it anonymous is like using a square wheel. It kind of works with enough effort until it doesn't. Don't use tools for things they weren't build for when working and proven alternatives exist.