5 ms·

I'm convinced titanium is a pretty optimal bike material. I hate aluminum frames, too stiff, some amount of flex makes a bike so much nicer. Hate carbon, too

I'm convinced titanium is a pretty optimal bike material. I hate aluminum frames, too stiff, some amount of flex makes a bike so much nicer. Hate carbon, too. Steel is nice. I've have a lite ghisallo frame which I think was under 2lbs. The whole bike is under 15lbs and still manages to carry my 200lbs of weight.

xpe 2y ago
Titanium frames have a devoted fan base. Personally, I tried to notice the difference back when I did road racing but didn't. Maybe I didn't want to: Ti ain't cheap.
- __mharrison__ 2y ago
  What is cheap these days?
  - loeg 2y ago
    Low quality steel is very cheap but also really heavy. You can get a whole crappy bike for a couple hundred bucks. Higher end steel isn't as cheap but is still relatively heavy (compared to aluminum or carbon). You can get this kind of bike in the $1000-2000 price range (e.g. Surly). Aluminum bikes tend to be inexpensive, but also not the lightest. These can also be priced at $1000-2000 (Specialized, Trek, Giant, ...). Carbon comes in a range of prices with various tradeoffs. You can get very budget carbon frames at like $1500 (Winspace) or whole bikes at like $3000 (Giant) (maybe $2000 in non-major brands, very discounted during current market conditions). For titanium, I'm seeing Black Friday deals starting at like, $3200-3500 (Lynskey / Litespeed). But they're often sold at higher prices than carbon bikes. (For my money, I prefer carbon frames -- you get more flexibility in tube shapes and the end result can be lighter and stronger than titanium.)
    - insane_dreamer 2y ago
      Prices shot up during the pandemic and never really went back down. You're lucky to find a good carbon bike for under $4K these days where you used to be able to find them for $2K.
      - loeg 2y ago
        Everyone's in oversupply now, inventory is listed at steep discounts to 2022-2023 prices. This bike isn't even on sale and it's under $4k and not a bad bike: https://www.giant-bicycles.com/us/tcr-advanced-2-pc-2025 https://www.giant-bicycles.com/us/tcr-advanced-2-pc-2025
    - grogenaut 2y ago
      Check these out https://www.rodbikes.com/profiles/profiles.php?tag=ultra-light https://www.rodbikes.com/profiles/profiles.php?tag=ultra-lig... steel bikes ~13.5 lbs.
      - loeg 2y ago
        Yeah. Very expensive and with significant compromises.
        grogenaut 2y ago
        could you expand? I get the expensive part, but they're also hand built customs so...
        loeg 2y ago
        Rim brakes are not great in wet conditions and limit tire sizes to about 28mm. Lightweight steel tends to be flexy and susceptible to dents.
        grogenaut 2y ago
        definitely with you on rim breaks... I thought they mention in one place they can put discs on these. I'm a large person and live in Seattle so I've been rocking discs on a cyclocross style bike since 2010 back when everyone was anti discs, they're far superior glad people finally got sane about them.
        loeg 2y ago
        > I thought they mention in one place they can put discs on these. Yeah, they can do it, but they'll be a little heavier than those relatively light rim brake steel bikes linked earlier. (The rotors/calipers, hydraulic, fluid, stronger fork leg required all just add mass.) I'm also in Seattle! Disc brakes all day.
    - tpm 2y ago
      For about the last year and a half you can usually get a carbon road bike from major brands with basic components starting from 2000 euro (right now I see Bianchi, BMC, Cannondale, Cube, Giant, Specialized listed around that price).
      - loeg 2y ago
        Yeah, I think in particular prices have come down dramatically in the past 3-6 months. The specific 2000EUR figure might be European pricing. The lowest I'm seeing for any carbon road bike from e.g. Specialized with US pricing is $2400 for a two generation old Tarmac SL6 (this generation was current 2019-2021) or $2800 for a current Roubaix. The least expensive carbon road bike offering from Giant is $3300 US (TCR or Defy). (Though I'd expect to be able to find better deals at retailers trying to move old inventory than direct from the manufacturers.)
        tpm 2y ago
        Yeah EU. One example I can give is this, Specialized Aethos 2024 for 2200 but only one size available, Giant TCR Advanced 2024 several sizes 2400, plenty others. This is a reputable retailer and there are some other with same/lower prices. https://www.bike24.com/road-bikes.html?dynamicAttributes%5B29%5D%5B379%5D=379&sort=price_asc https://www.bike24.com/road-bikes.html?dynamicAttributes%5B2...
  - toast0 2y ago
    Quality used bikes are remarkably affordable. I'm a sucker for 80s road bikes; $200 gets you something decent, bring it to a shop for a tune up and probably new brakes. 10-speeds are most common, so you have to be ok with that; although some vintage bikes did have 3 chain rings. Older road bikes tend to have narrow tires, because everybody thought they were faster; 1/4" tires are workable on unpaved mixed use trails, but 1/8" will be pushed around easily by tree roots and ruts.
- tokai 2y ago
  Custom ti frames are cheaper than the high end carbon frames nowadays.
gield 2y ago
You wouldn't feel the stiffness of an aluminium frame as much on a track. On the road, stiffness is a more important factor for rider comfort.
ndsipa_pomu 2y ago
> I'm convinced titanium is a pretty optimal bike material. I'm less convinced. Firstly, I'm not convinced by the frame flex theory of ride comfort - I believe that the tyres are by far the biggest contribution to ride comfort due to the amount that they can flex which is far more than the tiny amount that the frame can. Secondly, aerodynamics is far more important (if you care about speed/effort) and titanium is tricky to get into highly tailored shapes unless you resort to fancy 3d-printed frames. Carbon would be my choice due to the design flexibility - by orienting the carbon fibres differently, components can provide strength/stiffness in one direction whilst allowing for compliance in other directions. Also the shape can be relatively easily changed - no need to always use circular tubes. It'd be interesting to see a 3d-printed titanium frame that uses some kind of honeycomb internal structure to provide super strong/light frames, but I suspect it would be exorbitantly expensive.
- loeg 2y ago
  I share your skepticism about Titanium as a frame material, both in terms of comfort claims and tube shape limitations. However, you might find this interesting -- No. 22 bicycles has a (very expensive, prototype) titanium aero bike: https://22bicycles.com/products/reactor-aero https://22bicycles.com/products/reactor-aero . It hasn't actually seen a wind tunnel but at least it looks like an aero bike and they're talking about putting it in one. It is made using 3d printing (additive manufacturing) at least in part. > Pricing for the final production version has not yet been finalized, but we anticipate a frameset (frame, fork and headset) price in the range of USD $10,000 to $15,000.
danburbridge 2y ago
Ti is difficult to weld - there are a lot of cracked Ti frames out there - often at the welds :( A shame as they (can) look great.
prmoustache 2y ago
Frame flex of ti bikes is pure fantasy/placebo (at least on the vertical plane) on traditionnaly shaped frames. You would need enough force for the tires, wheels, saddle, handlebar, stem and seatposts to break/explose before the double triangle start flexing.

xpe 2y ago

Titanium frames have a devoted fan base. Personally, I tried to notice the difference back when I did road racing but didn't. Maybe I didn't want to: Ti ain't cheap.

__mharrison__ 2y ago
What is cheap these days?
- loeg 2y ago
  Low quality steel is very cheap but also really heavy. You can get a whole crappy bike for a couple hundred bucks. Higher end steel isn't as cheap but is still relatively heavy (compared to aluminum or carbon). You can get this kind of bike in the $1000-2000 price range (e.g. Surly). Aluminum bikes tend to be inexpensive, but also not the lightest. These can also be priced at $1000-2000 (Specialized, Trek, Giant, ...). Carbon comes in a range of prices with various tradeoffs. You can get very budget carbon frames at like $1500 (Winspace) or whole bikes at like $3000 (Giant) (maybe $2000 in non-major brands, very discounted during current market conditions). For titanium, I'm seeing Black Friday deals starting at like, $3200-3500 (Lynskey / Litespeed). But they're often sold at higher prices than carbon bikes. (For my money, I prefer carbon frames -- you get more flexibility in tube shapes and the end result can be lighter and stronger than titanium.)
  - insane_dreamer 2y ago
    Prices shot up during the pandemic and never really went back down. You're lucky to find a good carbon bike for under $4K these days where you used to be able to find them for $2K.
    - loeg 2y ago
      Everyone's in oversupply now, inventory is listed at steep discounts to 2022-2023 prices. This bike isn't even on sale and it's under $4k and not a bad bike: https://www.giant-bicycles.com/us/tcr-advanced-2-pc-2025 https://www.giant-bicycles.com/us/tcr-advanced-2-pc-2025
  - grogenaut 2y ago
    Check these out https://www.rodbikes.com/profiles/profiles.php?tag=ultra-light https://www.rodbikes.com/profiles/profiles.php?tag=ultra-lig... steel bikes ~13.5 lbs.
    - loeg 2y ago
      Yeah. Very expensive and with significant compromises.
      - grogenaut 2y ago
        could you expand? I get the expensive part, but they're also hand built customs so...
        loeg 2y ago
        Rim brakes are not great in wet conditions and limit tire sizes to about 28mm. Lightweight steel tends to be flexy and susceptible to dents.
        grogenaut 2y ago
        definitely with you on rim breaks... I thought they mention in one place they can put discs on these. I'm a large person and live in Seattle so I've been rocking discs on a cyclocross style bike since 2010 back when everyone was anti discs, they're far superior glad people finally got sane about them.
        loeg 2y ago
        > I thought they mention in one place they can put discs on these. Yeah, they can do it, but they'll be a little heavier than those relatively light rim brake steel bikes linked earlier. (The rotors/calipers, hydraulic, fluid, stronger fork leg required all just add mass.) I'm also in Seattle! Disc brakes all day.
  - tpm 2y ago
    For about the last year and a half you can usually get a carbon road bike from major brands with basic components starting from 2000 euro (right now I see Bianchi, BMC, Cannondale, Cube, Giant, Specialized listed around that price).
    - loeg 2y ago
      Yeah, I think in particular prices have come down dramatically in the past 3-6 months. The specific 2000EUR figure might be European pricing. The lowest I'm seeing for any carbon road bike from e.g. Specialized with US pricing is $2400 for a two generation old Tarmac SL6 (this generation was current 2019-2021) or $2800 for a current Roubaix. The least expensive carbon road bike offering from Giant is $3300 US (TCR or Defy). (Though I'd expect to be able to find better deals at retailers trying to move old inventory than direct from the manufacturers.)
      - tpm 2y ago
        Yeah EU. One example I can give is this, Specialized Aethos 2024 for 2200 but only one size available, Giant TCR Advanced 2024 several sizes 2400, plenty others. This is a reputable retailer and there are some other with same/lower prices. https://www.bike24.com/road-bikes.html?dynamicAttributes%5B29%5D%5B379%5D=379&sort=price_asc https://www.bike24.com/road-bikes.html?dynamicAttributes%5B2...
- toast0 2y ago
  Quality used bikes are remarkably affordable. I'm a sucker for 80s road bikes; $200 gets you something decent, bring it to a shop for a tune up and probably new brakes. 10-speeds are most common, so you have to be ok with that; although some vintage bikes did have 3 chain rings. Older road bikes tend to have narrow tires, because everybody thought they were faster; 1/4" tires are workable on unpaved mixed use trails, but 1/8" will be pushed around easily by tree roots and ruts.
tokai 2y ago
Custom ti frames are cheaper than the high end carbon frames nowadays.

gield 2y ago

You wouldn't feel the stiffness of an aluminium frame as much on a track. On the road, stiffness is a more important factor for rider comfort.

ndsipa_pomu 2y ago

> I'm convinced titanium is a pretty optimal bike material. I'm less convinced. Firstly, I'm not convinced by the frame flex theory of ride comfort - I believe that the tyres are by far the biggest contribution to ride comfort due to the amount that they can flex which is far more than the tiny amount that the frame can. Secondly, aerodynamics is far more important (if you care about speed/effort) and titanium is tricky to get into highly tailored shapes unless you resort to fancy 3d-printed frames. Carbon would be my choice due to the design flexibility - by orienting the carbon fibres differently, components can provide strength/stiffness in one direction whilst allowing for compliance in other directions. Also the shape can be relatively easily changed - no need to always use circular tubes. It'd be interesting to see a 3d-printed titanium frame that uses some kind of honeycomb internal structure to provide super strong/light frames, but I suspect it would be exorbitantly expensive.

loeg 2y ago
I share your skepticism about Titanium as a frame material, both in terms of comfort claims and tube shape limitations. However, you might find this interesting -- No. 22 bicycles has a (very expensive, prototype) titanium aero bike: https://22bicycles.com/products/reactor-aero https://22bicycles.com/products/reactor-aero . It hasn't actually seen a wind tunnel but at least it looks like an aero bike and they're talking about putting it in one. It is made using 3d printing (additive manufacturing) at least in part. > Pricing for the final production version has not yet been finalized, but we anticipate a frameset (frame, fork and headset) price in the range of USD $10,000 to $15,000.

danburbridge 2y ago

Ti is difficult to weld - there are a lot of cracked Ti frames out there - often at the welds :( A shame as they (can) look great.

prmoustache 2y ago

Frame flex of ti bikes is pure fantasy/placebo (at least on the vertical plane) on traditionnaly shaped frames. You would need enough force for the tires, wheels, saddle, handlebar, stem and seatposts to break/explose before the double triangle start flexing.