4 ms·

The article misstates a few things in its opening. Evidence so far indicates humans first settled into fixed colonies/cities around 45,000 years ago starting i

The article misstates a few things in its opening. Evidence so far indicates humans first settled into fixed colonies/cities around 45,000 years ago starting in eastern Europe. These people are referred to as neolithic, where as mobile units without a fixed geography are referred to as archaic. It wasn't until around 10,000 years ago that humans first civilized (around 8,000 to 7,000 BCE). So this means people, the same mentioned in the article, civilized several thousand years before they had writing. The only real difference between neolithic settlements and civilization is governance and influence. Writing is beneficial, but influence can be accomplish through various means including: arts, religion, culture, organized military activity, and more. It is also worth pointing that civilization was extremely unappealing to the uncivilized who first encountered it. The most immediate symptoms of civilization are social restrictions, class stratification, and loss of mobility of which all are essentially opposing aspects of freedom.

7thaccount 2y ago
What is the evidence of cities existing 45,000 years ago? I thought the earliest we had was around 10,000 years ago in Turkey?
- otabdeveloper4 2y ago
  A "city" is a specific type of "settlement" -- one that has walls and can't produce its own food.
  - saghm 2y ago
    Are walls really a requirement for something being considered a city? Off the top of my head, I've been to New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, Philadelphia, and Boston and don't recall anything I'd describe as a "wall" around any of them. Is not having walls just an American thing? I could imagine the historical definition of "city" not being consistent with modern cities, but if that's the case, it's no wonder that this would confuse people and require clarifications like the one you give here.
    - austin-cheney 2y ago
      Walls are generally not a formal requirement, but are implied so due to their commonality. All ancient cities, especially pre-civilization, had walls though, often several layers of walls built on top of each other as the given cities were pillaged and rebuilt. Its not confusing to anybody vaguely aware of ancient history.
      - davoneus 2y ago
        IIRC, the Sumerians (through the Akkadians perhaps) left records stating they had to build walls around their cities. Which to me certainly implies the Sumerians had cities without walls for some time. Pretty big deal that, to have recorded it.
        austin-cheney 2y ago
        Don't assume things not stated. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirming_the_consequent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirming_the_consequent
        Amezarak 2y ago
        Cities subjected by some empire or another were sometimes forced to tear down their walls and there were perhaps periods of relative isolation and peacefulness during the founding of some cities where one wasn't immediately necessary, but even very ancient settlements commonly had at least palisades. There are probably some other exceptions; Sparta famously did not have walls under the philosophy that nobody should ever dare even try them, but they were also blessed by geography.
      - mistercheph 2y ago
        *All ancient construction that we've found and called cities had walls
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
        2y ago
- austin-cheney 2y ago
  According to Wikipedia it is 25,000 years ago and in Eastern Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedentism#Requirements_for_permanent_settlements https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedentism#Requirements_for_per... The 45,000 years ago number I referred to earlier comes from sources that are not online. Either way, the start of human settlement occurred on the Eastern European plain during the ice age, which is far before anything in Anatolia or Mesopotamia.
  - ch4s3 2y ago
    > The 45,000 years ago number I referred to earlier comes from sources that are not online. Are you referring to a book, or unpublished academic work? Is there a particular scholar you have in mind?
  - biorach 2y ago
    > According to Wikipedia it is 25,000 years ago and in Eastern Europe The person you were replying to was asking about cities. The article you are posting is about Sedentism - "the practice of living in one place for a long time". The figure of 25,000 years ago is for the first evidence of permanent settlements. These do not fit anyone's definition of a city. The first evidence of cities are from Sumer, which is what this whole thread is about.
    - austin-cheney 2y ago
      Look, I know this is confusing (no, it isn't). The person I replied to replied to me. I never mentioned city, but they injected the word city nonetheless probably because they had no idea what they were replying to or what the words meant. What qualifies whether any fixed permanent or semi-permanent settlement is actually a city, town, hamlet, or village is entirely subjective.
      - olddustytrail 2y ago
        > I never mentioned city, Yes you did: > first settled into fixed colonies/cities around 45,000 years ago

7thaccount 2y ago

What is the evidence of cities existing 45,000 years ago? I thought the earliest we had was around 10,000 years ago in Turkey?

otabdeveloper4 2y ago
A "city" is a specific type of "settlement" -- one that has walls and can't produce its own food.
- saghm 2y ago
  Are walls really a requirement for something being considered a city? Off the top of my head, I've been to New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, Philadelphia, and Boston and don't recall anything I'd describe as a "wall" around any of them. Is not having walls just an American thing? I could imagine the historical definition of "city" not being consistent with modern cities, but if that's the case, it's no wonder that this would confuse people and require clarifications like the one you give here.
  - austin-cheney 2y ago
    Walls are generally not a formal requirement, but are implied so due to their commonality. All ancient cities, especially pre-civilization, had walls though, often several layers of walls built on top of each other as the given cities were pillaged and rebuilt. Its not confusing to anybody vaguely aware of ancient history.
    - davoneus 2y ago
      IIRC, the Sumerians (through the Akkadians perhaps) left records stating they had to build walls around their cities. Which to me certainly implies the Sumerians had cities without walls for some time. Pretty big deal that, to have recorded it.
      - austin-cheney 2y ago
        Don't assume things not stated. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirming_the_consequent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirming_the_consequent
      - Amezarak 2y ago
        Cities subjected by some empire or another were sometimes forced to tear down their walls and there were perhaps periods of relative isolation and peacefulness during the founding of some cities where one wasn't immediately necessary, but even very ancient settlements commonly had at least palisades. There are probably some other exceptions; Sparta famously did not have walls under the philosophy that nobody should ever dare even try them, but they were also blessed by geography.
    - mistercheph 2y ago
      *All ancient construction that we've found and called cities had walls
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - 2y ago
austin-cheney 2y ago
According to Wikipedia it is 25,000 years ago and in Eastern Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedentism#Requirements_for_permanent_settlements https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedentism#Requirements_for_per... The 45,000 years ago number I referred to earlier comes from sources that are not online. Either way, the start of human settlement occurred on the Eastern European plain during the ice age, which is far before anything in Anatolia or Mesopotamia.
- ch4s3 2y ago
  > The 45,000 years ago number I referred to earlier comes from sources that are not online. Are you referring to a book, or unpublished academic work? Is there a particular scholar you have in mind?
- biorach 2y ago
  > According to Wikipedia it is 25,000 years ago and in Eastern Europe The person you were replying to was asking about cities. The article you are posting is about Sedentism - "the practice of living in one place for a long time". The figure of 25,000 years ago is for the first evidence of permanent settlements. These do not fit anyone's definition of a city. The first evidence of cities are from Sumer, which is what this whole thread is about.
  - austin-cheney 2y ago
    Look, I know this is confusing (no, it isn't). The person I replied to replied to me. I never mentioned city, but they injected the word city nonetheless probably because they had no idea what they were replying to or what the words meant. What qualifies whether any fixed permanent or semi-permanent settlement is actually a city, town, hamlet, or village is entirely subjective.
    - olddustytrail 2y ago
      > I never mentioned city, Yes you did: > first settled into fixed colonies/cities around 45,000 years ago