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The irony of the whole thing is that it is usually the pragmatists and not the idealists who wind up "moving industry forward", because by definition, the pragm

by frankc 14y ago

The irony of the whole thing is that it is usually the pragmatists and not the idealists who wind up "moving industry forward", because by definition, the pragmatists get things done. The world needs C not lisp.

groby_b 14y ago
And yet the ideas of Lisp are what's driving modern languages forward. The world needs both. The world needs people actually getting relevant stuff done right now, and the world needs the dreamers who focus on Utopia. Ideally, both learn from each others' experiences, without declaring that really, they are the group the world really needs.
raganwald 14y ago
I have great sympathy for your point that pragmatism has tremendous value. I disagree in a trifling way with statements like “The world needs C not Lisp,” it is obvious to me that the world needs both C and Lisp. Or it did, and both have contributed in various ways to progress, and C continues to be a useful tool. The interesting thing is that insanely great progress requires operating at all levels of the hierarchy. Consider the oft-quoted maxim, “Real artists ship.” This does not suggest that there is no room for dreaming, but rather that the highest form of artistry is the application of pragmatism to manifesting our dreams.
- tom_b 14y ago
  "the highest form of artistry is the application of pragmatism to manifesting our dreams" Have been sitting on that sentence just waiting to use it or are you feeling particularly poetic today? Thanks either way. Very nicely phrased.
- frankc 14y ago
  First of all, I think my statement "the world needs C not Lisp" was meant to be taken metaphorically, not literally. Of course there is a place for Lisp, but at the end of the day, who has gotten more done in the real world? That certainly hasn't stopped the Lisp hackers from looking down their noses, however. The bottom line is that the sense I get from the kinds of rhetoric in the OP is not the kind of high-minded idealism you express but rather just a bunch of software aestheticians casting value judgements on the people who are focused on making things happen. My perception could be wrong, I'll grant you that.
enraged_camel 14y ago
"The world needs C not Lisp" is like saying "the world needs English not French."
- ebertx 14y ago
  I think your statement is open to an interpretation you didn't intend.

by frankc 14y ago

groby_b 14y ago

And yet the ideas of Lisp are what's driving modern languages forward. The world needs both. The world needs people actually getting relevant stuff done right now, and the world needs the dreamers who focus on Utopia. Ideally, both learn from each others' experiences, without declaring that really, they are the group the world really needs.

raganwald 14y ago

I have great sympathy for your point that pragmatism has tremendous value. I disagree in a trifling way with statements like “The world needs C not Lisp,” it is obvious to me that the world needs both C and Lisp. Or it did, and both have contributed in various ways to progress, and C continues to be a useful tool. The interesting thing is that insanely great progress requires operating at all levels of the hierarchy. Consider the oft-quoted maxim, “Real artists ship.” This does not suggest that there is no room for dreaming, but rather that the highest form of artistry is the application of pragmatism to manifesting our dreams.

tom_b 14y ago
"the highest form of artistry is the application of pragmatism to manifesting our dreams" Have been sitting on that sentence just waiting to use it or are you feeling particularly poetic today? Thanks either way. Very nicely phrased.
frankc 14y ago
First of all, I think my statement "the world needs C not Lisp" was meant to be taken metaphorically, not literally. Of course there is a place for Lisp, but at the end of the day, who has gotten more done in the real world? That certainly hasn't stopped the Lisp hackers from looking down their noses, however. The bottom line is that the sense I get from the kinds of rhetoric in the OP is not the kind of high-minded idealism you express but rather just a bunch of software aestheticians casting value judgements on the people who are focused on making things happen. My perception could be wrong, I'll grant you that.

enraged_camel 14y ago

"The world needs C not Lisp" is like saying "the world needs English not French."

ebertx 14y ago
I think your statement is open to an interpretation you didn't intend.